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Israel -Hamas

jungle · 53 · 2420

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Online Roger

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Jungle - yes it's obvious the 'bias' Ben Shapiro has but IMO he gives very balanced comments.

Similarly, Rory Stewart does well IMO. ATB
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online jungle

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I've heard Ben showing concern for the innocent civilians traped in Gaza and belive he's being sincere in that
No matter which way it goes many more Palestinians than Israelis will die in this war
All world governments know this but can't really  acknowledge that this will and is happening
Like I can't see Sunak tel the nation that we support israil and accept that innocent civilians including children wiĺl be  killed
That's probably why it's softly softly re pro Palestinian protesters....maybe
It's ugly business I only hope real pressure goes on all for a meaningful solution afterwards


Online Roger

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"Israel has launched air attacks on Damascus and Aleppo airports, according to Syrian media.

It is thought that the strikes were targeting Iranian-funded arms and supplies being sent to Hizbollah fighters in Syria and southern Lebanon. Local media in Syria reported earlier that air defences were used at the airports against the attacks.
"

Here we go !  (source DT) . . .
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online caller

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I find it quite scary where some of the hate speech is coming from, or maybe it isn't?

From The Times:

British academics have been accused of justifying the attacks by Hamas militants on civilians in online posts, including one that said the killings were a “consequence” for “partying on stolen land”.

The Union of Jewish Students said the statements had contributed to a “hostile” environment for Jewish students on campuses in the UK.

University College London confirmed that it was investigating an academic for reposting a comment made on October 7 saying that Palestinian “retaliation” had been “entirely justifiable”.

“We strongly condemn any form of racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, discrimination, incitement, abuse, bullying or harassment,” the university said in a statement. “We are investigating this incident and will take appropriate action as necessary.”

Universities have chosen not to single out Hamas for condemnation and have defended their staff’s right to freedom of expression, but Jewish groups demanded that university heads take action, arguing that professors’ online activity was bolstering antisemitism on campus.

Tamar Blumgart, 20, a first-year law student at LSE, said that online posts by lecturers at her university had made her “feel unsafe” on campus, and that friends had removed their Star of David necklaces and kippahs. “Lecturers promoting these opinions really gives them validity. It’s very irresponsible,” she said. “These posts are adding to the hostile environment.”

The Times has identified a dozen academics at Oxbridge and Russell Group universities who have posted statements appearing to justify the weekend’s attacks on Israel.

Professor Ashok Kumar, a senior lecturer of political economy at Birkbeck, wrote in a post on Twitter/X that has now been deleted: “Sometimes partying on stolen land next to a concentration camp where a million people are starved has consequences.”

Neil Thin, an honorary fellow at the University of Edinburgh, said in reply: “It looks horribly like gleeful support of a genocidal massacre of hundreds of innocent youngsters by a terrorist organisation who are self-proclaimed antisemitic racists.”

Dr Maryam Aldossari, a senior lecturer at Royal Holloway, part of the University of London, shared an image of a Palestinian paraglider and asked why the attack on the desert rave was defined as terrorism, rather than self-defence.

Paragliders were used by armed Hamas militants to attack the Supernova festival, held near the border with Gaza in the Negev Desert, from the air early on Saturday morning.

On the afternoon of October 7, Dr Shahd Abusalama, a visiting scholar at the University of Westminster, wrote: “Gaza is resisting, breaking its prison walls.”

Dr Ingrid Kvangraven, a lecturer in International Development at King’s College London, retweeted a thread on Twitter/X that said that “fighting back for a liberated homeland” was “the only sane reaction” to Israel’s “military occupation and apartheid rule”.

Dr Shahd Hammouri, a law lecturer at Kent Law School, said in an article published on the Law for Palestine website on October 8: “Resistance by the Palestinian people by all means available at their disposal against an illegal occupying power is a legitimate act.”

Dr Mahvish Ahmad, an assistant professor at LSE, called on students to show solidarity with the “Palestinian struggle”. She declined to comment.

The comments by the academics prompted anger among Jewish groups. “It is despicable and beyond comprehension that academics on university campuses — in positions of authority — think it acceptable and appropriate to condone, support, and in some cases celebrate the actions of a proscribed terrorist group,” Guy Dabby-Joory, head of campaigns at the Union of Jewish Students, said. “They must be universally condemned, and universities must take appropriate action.”

Professor Anthony Glees, a security expert at the University of Buckingham, said: “Professors are radicalising their young impressionable students under the guise of academic freedom. Universities are behaving in a hypocritical way, they’re allowing staff to do some things but not others. They are pandering to extremism.”

Dr Olivia Arigho-Stiles, a postdoctoral research fellow, is the academic under investigation by UCL. She reposted a comment saying that the “Palestinian retaliation is wholly inevitable and entirely justifiable” because of Israel’s “siege” on Gaza. She did not respond to repeated requests for comment.

In response to a request for comment, Aldossari said: “No one is pro-Hamas except Hamas themselves. Fixating on Hamas actions distracts from the pressing issue at hand, which is the ongoing colonial occupation maintained by the Israeli government.”

The London School of Economics said: “The LSE community is deeply concerned about the dramatic escalation of violence and terrible loss of life across Israel and Gaza. As our code of practice on free speech clearly sets out, academic freedom and freedom of expression underpins everything we do at LSE and we do not police or control the social media use of our faculty as long as it remains within the law.

“That said, students and staff are strongly encouraged to discuss and debate the most pressing issues around the world in a mutually respectful manner.”

The University of London, KCL, and the University of Westminster did not respond to a request for comment.

The Oxford Israel Society has criticised the university’s silence on the Hamas attacks. It said it had “watched in unmitigated horror the events that have unfolded in the past few days”, adding: “The genocidal intent of the perpetrators and their sheer depravity is clear for all to see. Entire families butchered.”

Oxford University had put out a statement saying: “We wish to acknowledge that the news of the recent conflict is very upsetting, particularly for our students and colleagues with connections to the area. The university has written directly to impacted staff and students to offer welfare and other types of support. Both the university and colleges are working to ensure all members of the university community are supported as much as possible, and we will respond as appropriate as the situation develops.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/israel-palestine-uk-academics-ucl-oxford-cambridge-7sw2vr9ls

Some of the comments are not really a surprise, considering their backgrounds. But it does rather beg the question of their fitness to be labelled 'academics'? Some of these comments are a border line, or more, breach of the law, about supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation, as Hamas are. And as such, their uni's at least, should take action. Freedom of expression is not the same as freedom to break the law. Personally, I would sack them all. True wisdom would ensure they don't act in a way that could unduly influence their students, which wouldn't be a problem if such comments were balanced, rather than just soundbites exhibiting their own prejudice.


Online jungle

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I just can’t fathom how any supposedly learned person can support what Hamas has just done
For me I have no ideological ,moral or philosophical difficulties in condemning Hamas and still supporting the Palestinian cause .What are they thinking really ?

Seen a post from the Israeli Air Force stating they have as of last night  “ dropped  6000 bombs against Hamas targets in Gaza “ missed launch sites ,command and control sites ,intelligence assets, munitions manufacturing sites and lead ship targets
Sad that they know where all these targets are but nothing about the  Planed terrorist attack

Have also seen an interesting  comparison.The international coalition against ISIS dropped a monthly average of 2500 over an area of 46000 km2 Gaza is 400 km2
Current reported deaths in Gaza 1400 +
I just wonder how many are Hamas terrorists ? As they have been through this sort of bombing before and  Gaza is well know for its tunnels


Online caller

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I just wonder, once this is all over and if, hopefully, Hamas is no more, that the Palastinians, without the fanatics ruling the roost, would agree to a designated self-ruling homeland as was initally planned all those years ago. I think that Egypt and Jordan would support this. Syria are in no position to argue, Lebanon is a problem, primarily because of hezbollah, funded by Iran, who would be the big stumbling block.

The question is where and what would Israel be prepared to concede?

I am probably being naive.


Online jungle

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I hope so this one might be ugly enough for those involved to seriously think of a more permanent solution
Would definitely need to change some leadership of attitudes on both sides but I think the push for that may come from the citizens on both sides
Never give up hope
1st rule of losing is to give up


Online Coolkorat

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I hope so this one might be ugly enough for those involved to seriously think of a more permanent solution
Would definitely need to change some leadership of attitudes on both sides but I think the push for that may come from the citizens on both sides
Never give up hope
1st rule of losing is to give up

Completely agree with you: Hamas came to power many years ago and have not allowed elections since. Gaza would be far better without them. Perhaps this is the catalyst to a pragmatic settlement, but it needs the US and Arab nations to stand shoulder to shoulder - and Saudi is critical; it needs to drag itself fully into the 21st century and stop playing political/ religious games.


Online jungle

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Short article on the complex relationship with Hamas and Netanyahu administrations

Also in bedded in the post is an interesting video about the Dead Sea worth a watch
Apparently the sea level has dropped 45mts in the past 50 years

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/


Online Roger

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Thanks for your reply 29 - interesting.

As the UK's prisons are at bursting point, just how are we gonna tackle this ? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12630283/Hamas-arrested-Met-Police-pro-Palestinian-protesters-London-officers.html

it looks very serious and very difficult  :(
« Last Edit: October 15, 2023, 07:03:54 AM by Roger »
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online caller

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Short article on the complex relationship with Hamas and Netanyahu administrations

Interesting article.

Goin forward, I doubt Netanyahu will be involved in Israels future for much longer. Israelis are seething about his management of the Country. 


Online jungle

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I can’t see it any other way either Caller .Netanyahu was willing to split the nation for his own political and personal goals
Previously unimaginable,Months long protests 500,000 Israelis on the streets
Its a prime example of the dangers of stirring up division with in your own people /nation
He’s toast for sure

The London protests do look a bit ugly Roger
But I don’t think it’s out of hand
Confused with the article saying 7 arrests then later on mentioning 15 ?
And if I read this correctly no one arrested for supporting Hamas ?
But not huge numbers
Good move closing of the street infront of the Israeli embassy
Re prison issues ITBH can’t remember many protests ever being sent down
I hope calm heads prevail in managing this just as there are many Jews living the UK there’s many Palestinians aswell
My personal thoughts are that western governments accept that Hamas has to be destroyed and doing that  governments accept that will result in many civilians being killed passions will be running high


Offline Tiggs

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‘It’s like another planet’: crossing the frontier from Gaza to work in Israel
Unemployment in the Gaza Strip stands at 44% but since 2021 permits to work in Israel have been issued in small numbers


palestinian workers enter Israel from Gaza at the Erez crossing. Photograph: Oded Balilty/AP

‘It’s like another planet’: crossing the frontier from Gaza to work in Israel

Unemployment in the Gaza Strip stands at 44% but since 2021 permits to work in Israel have been issued in small numbers
There’s nothing quite like the Erez crossing, the only civilian route between Israel and the blockaded Gaza Strip, anywhere else in the world. The Israeli side looks like an airport terminal, but is in fact a fortress: surveillance balloons and motion sensors monitor above and below the sea and land that make up Gaza’s de facto borders, while semi-autonomous robots, equipped with machine guns, patrol the buffer zone.

Inside, Israeli border and military personnel use offices connected by walkways high above the ground to minimise the risk of attack. Single-person turnstiles, mazes of movable walls and caged walkways eventually lead to Palestinian territory.

Built in the 2000s at a cost of $60m (£50m), Erez was designed to facilitate about 45,000 Palestinians a day who used to leave the strip to go to work in Israel. The militant group Hamas took over just four months after it was finished, however, leading the Israelis – who occupied Gaza from 1967 to 2005 before withdrawing their forces – to seal the frontier. For the most part, the crossing has been eerily empty for the past 15 years. An entire generation of Palestinians in Gaza has never left the tiny 41km by 12km area, or ever met a single Israeli.

Now, that is changing somewhat. In 2021, Israeli authorities began reissuing work permits for a larger number of people as part of an effort to stabilise the strip after last May’s 11-day war with Hamas, boosting an economy that cannot function normally. Research released in August by Israel’s Institute for National Security Studies found that the average wage of a Palestinian from Gaza working in Israel is six times higher than in the strip, at 6,350 shekels (£1,500) a month.

Interesting read here Nasser’s story ........theguardian.com
Appeasers believe that if you keep on throwing steaks to a tiger, the tiger will become a vegetarian.


Online Roger

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Tiggs thanks for that about Erez - "the crossing has been eerily empty for the past 15 years. An entire generation of Palestinians in Gaza has never left the tiny 41km by 12km area, or ever met a single Israeli."   :(

Jungle thanks for yours too - I'm not sure Netanyahu is 'toast for sure'. Re. the protests in London and elsewhere, maybe it's not 'out of hand' but I'd add 'yet' - it's on a knife edge. I fear we could see a wide resurgence of terrorism in Europe and elsewhere.

Yes the idea that Hamas 'has to be destroyed' seems to have been tolerated but not in Iran, Lebanon, Syria and the 'West Bank' etc etc. The attack on the Hospital in Gaza City is another terrible tragedy and let's hope Israel can substantiate that it wasn't them . . . . and quickly.

Returning to the subject of terrorism, from MI5 "The regime in Tehran, he said, already posed a “particularly intensive” threat but may now “move into new directions”. Mr McCallum warned: “We have obviously been concerned about Iran’s behaviour in the UK for a long time. In particular, the last 18 months or so have been a particularly intensive phase of Iran-generated threat on UK soil." https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/17/mif-chief-ken-mccallum-warning-iran-back-terror-uk/

Joe Biden's pending visit to Israel is IMO madness - he will be a target and if he is attacked there WILL be a war with Iran. Sunak should not be going either IMO   ::)   (FGS what happened to video calls? )

Dangerous days for all of us . . . . ATB
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Offline Tiggs

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Mob storms Russian airport looking for Israelis
A mob looking for Israelis and Jews overran an airport in Russia's Caucasus republic of Dagestan on Sunday, after rumours spread that a flight was arriving from Israel.

The violence in the mostly Muslim region, which erupted amid the war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza, prompted Israel to call on Russia to protect its citizens. Dozens of protesters, many of them chanting "Allahu Akbar" (God is greatest) broke through doors and barriers, with some running onto the runway, according to videos posted on social media and Russia's RT and Izvestia media.  bangkokpost.com

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvm8Seqnpo8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvm8Seqnpo8</a>
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Online jungle

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That was really frightening an outa control mob hunting Jews
TBH I had to look  Dagestan on google
Hard not to see Russians hand in here with fanning the flames to distract attention and support for Ukraine


Online Roger

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Oct 7th was unbelievably terrible as is what's happening in Gaza now.

It seems to me that Israel has no alternative other than to eliminate Hammas and it's supporters insofaras that will be possible.

Hitherto Israel has understandably not been able to coexist with a Gaza run by Hammas who are dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

The people of Gaza are becoming angry with Hammas as they suffer massive death and destruction

Gaza is being substantially destroyed and will be setback decades.

Remembering that Israel has been ruthless in Gaza and the West Bank in recent decades, particularly by inserting Israeli settlements into their midst.

It is possible to be anti-Israel i.e. disapprove of aspects of Israeli policy WITHOUT being anti-semitic   

Jews all around the World are feeling vulnerable.

********

The way forward and God knows, they need to find one.

Netanyahu is not popular in Israel even though most feel that they need him for now.

Netanyahu cannot change so when this is over, he has to go.

Israel MUST change it's policies and accept movement towards a 'two state' solution.

The Palestinians must reject Hammas-like thinking which cannot be tolerated by Israel any longer and the Palestinians must then accept a milder Israel and work with them for a better future.

Why am I trundling on ? I don't know. It helps to get it off one's chest I suppose.

I hope ALL parties around this disaster will soon feel NO MORE and we can, 'post Hammas', move on.
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online jungle

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Agree that Hamas has to go but it’s an ugly philosophical problem when the response to the murder of your own innocent civilians involves the killing of other innocent civilians and going through a cycle that’s been repeated many times and never ever gives a differing result
  Like you I’m hopeful that after seeing the endless hatred generated by Hamas religious fundamentalists and Netanyahu’s  radical coalitions and long history of resisting a 2 state solution are finished
They have been close to agreeing on a solution before so there’s hope …
I really hope the IDF can finish the operation soon as it’s becoming a passionate issues world wide 

Was pleased to see the the London Armistice day and Palestinian peace march wasn’t a total disaster
Strange to notice that the in the PMs release he never thanked the front line police for their efforts considering a few were injured
I’m thinking the Home Secretary got a few things wrong like miss identifying the real Hate marchers
The police unjustly tackling right wing protestors over left wing
Surprisingly the Home Secretary want reprimanded for  undermining the police force in public as she did , her duty is to bring calm .I suspect we will see more  Divisiveness from here on in



Online Roger

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"Middle East Eye is edited by David Hearst, a former foreign leader writer for The Guardian.
MEE employs about 20 full-time staff in its London office
" (WikiP).

I posted this thought a few days ago, 'Remembering that Israel has been ruthless in Gaza and the West Bank in recent decades, particularly by inserting Israeli settlements into their midst'. Undeniably so and seen a little more from the other side in this YouTube - it's food for thought and food for concern - can this ever be put right  :(   Worth the watch IMO . . .

https://youtu.be/9aI8r70Znvk
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online jungle

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Good vid doco Roger  and brave of you to risk being branded a Hate protester 55555 .I have long viewed Israel as a dishonest player in this conflict even if only by the fact that they seemingly never take blame for anything that happens and constantly portray the Palestinians as the problem   While steadily encroaching on land and civil rights 

 I remember one example ,The Gaza border protests of 2018/19
Between end of march 2018 end Dec 2018 Palestinians
live ammunition fatality’s 183
live ammunition injury’s 6000+
Israel’s live ammunition ( shrapnel) injury  1 soldier total

But sadly I see no way out for Gaza now other than the destruction or best efforts at that of Hamas
I just hope it’s done quickly with the minimal loss of civilians and others outside the conflict say calm
Personally I  believe Hamas is just a fundamentalist terrorist organization they believe in the total destruction of Israel no peace deal happening there I think
They haven’t allowed any elections in 17 years and ignore all laws
I strongly believe in an working democracy and a rule of law as the best way to.
 Avoid this sorta shit …hopefully one day
I wouldn’t believe most of the Israeli reports on the war they rarely if ever criticize themselves  and have become quite clever with propaganda
I really hope after this the present government and the radical right fundamentalist jewish settler group (bit of a mouth full ) coalition that Netanyahu put together to stay in power are vanquished for good
And the Israelis start thinking of a 2 state settlement and a permanent peace
The Israelis hold all the cards so the first steeps should come from them I hope
If they can’t do it they are just doomed to reap this again but worse
I hope both sides  see reason