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Israel -Hamas

jungle · 53 · 2421

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Online Roger

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J re. the video - yes it helps to look from the other side too. Actually I am a 'hate protestor' - I am protesting at the hate on both sides - (which is understandable on both sides).

'Seeing reason' - not much chance of that I fear. As I posted before - can this ever be put right ?
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online jungle

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Interesting repot from CNN on 2 members of Netanyahu’s coalition and happenings in the West Bank since the Mamas attack on the 7 th of October

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/15/the-lead-israeli-cabinet-extreme-speech-jake-tapper-live.cnn

Also repost this anti ail on Ben Gvir the national security minister

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/02/27/itamar-ben-gvir-israels-minister-of-chaos


Online Roger

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A Lady from Northern Ireland on 'Question Time' last week and an interesting exchange with an MP. In this link Michael Walker of Novara Media comments https://youtu.be/yaXNkCfLF6A?t=429




''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online jungle

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Roger I think that was a fair summary of the state of any negotiations on Palestinian, Israel peace
The Israel's have their foot on the Palestinians throats for any negotiation where's the incentive ?
  And a statement from Jared Kushner at the last negotiations was
If you don't accept this offer you know the next time will be less as has  previously happened
Not really negotiationing in good faith is it
Bellow an excerpt from Joe Bidens Washington post piece
I can't ever remember an American president talking like this



The Palestinian people deserve a state of their own and a future free from Hamas. I, too, am heartbroken by the images out of Gaza and the deaths of many thousands of civilians, including children. Palestinian children are crying for lost parents. Parents are writing their child’s name on their hand or leg so they can be identified if the worst happens. Palestinian nurses and doctors are trying desperately to save every precious life they possibly can, with little to no resources. Every innocent Palestinian life lost is a tragedy that rips apart families and communities.


Our goal should not be simply to stop the war for today — it should be to end the war forever, break the cycle of unceasing violence, and build something stronger in Gaza and across the Middle East so that history does not keep repeating itself.




This much is clear: A two-state solution is the only way to ensure the long-term security of both the Israeli and Palestinian people. Though right now it may seem like that future has never been further away, this crisis has made it more imperative than ever.

A two-state solution — two peoples living side by side with equal measures of freedom, opportunity and dignity — is where the road to peace must lead. Reaching it will take commitments from Israelis and Palestinians, as well as from the United States and our allies and partners. That work must start now.

To that end, the United States has proposed basic principles for how to move forward from this crisis, to give the world a foundation on which to build.
 


"To start, Gaza must never again be used as a platform for terrorism. There must be no forcible displacement of Palestinians from Gaza, no reoccupation, no siege or blockade, and no reduction in territory. And after this war is over, the voices of Palestinian people and their aspirations must be at the center of post-crisis governance in Gaza."

"As we strive for peace, Gaza and the West Bank should be reunited under a single governance structure, ultimately under a revitalized Palestinian Authority, as we all work toward a two-state solution. I have been emphatic with Israel’s leaders that extremist violence against Palestinians in the West Bank must stop and that those committing the violence must be held accountable. The United States is prepared to take our own steps, including issuing visa bans against extremists attacking civilians in the West Bank."

"The international community must commit resources to support the people of Gaza in the immediate aftermath of this crisis, including interim security measures, and establish a reconstruction mechanism to sustainably meet Gaza’s long-term needs. And it is imperative that no terrorist threats ever again emanate from Gaza or the West Bank"
 

Full piece

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/18/joe-biden-gaza-hamas-putin/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJyZWFzb24iOiJnaWZ0IiwibmJmIjoxNzAwMjgzNjAwLCJpc3MiOiJzdWJzY3JpcHRpb25zIiwiZXhwIjoxNzAxNjY1OTk5LCJpYXQiOjE3MDAyODM2MDAsImp0aSI6ImZmYzA1MTdmLWUyNjgtNDM3Mi05YjE1LTA5OWEzYjQwYjdlYSIsInVybCI6Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lndhc2hpbmd0b25wb3N0LmNvbS9vcGluaW9ucy8yMDIzLzExLzE4L2pvZS1iaWRlbi1nYXphLWhhbWFzLXB1dGluLyJ9.mOFUXh68oAfi8ipyt2e2znXrWbOasX59Nsavc9sjhaI


Online Roger

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Thanks Jungle - I was offered a free sign up to the Post and have taken it - cheers   ;D

It's 'beer o'clock' so I haven't been through whole thing but I will do so later. What I have seen on a quick look in, suggests that Biden is indeed looking at both sides, as Clinton did years ago with Israeli PM Rabin   :-\

You comment, "I can't ever remember an American president talking like this"

Me neither - thanks for posting it. R

''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

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Jungle I haven't seen this piece mentioned at all in the wider media and in the night I had dark thoughts that this could be an AI spoof finding it's way into the Washington Post.

Having read it again, it seems genuine and surely would have been 'unmasked' by now. It's hard to disagree with one single word. Alleleuah to that and well done Joe  :)

And thanks again Jungle.
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online jungle

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Roger I had my doubts about it aswell because for one reason it’s a strange way to address the issues when he can just put out a press release
Maybe he wants a low key approach?


Online caller

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The problem being that the two state concept is nothing new. Every other US president for years has attempted this.

Hamas will never accept it, so they need to be wiped out. Iran will never accept it either.

I think the majority of Israeli's and Palestininians would, but then you get to the thorny question of where will the borders be. It can't be as proposed before, a bit of Palestine here, there and everywhere, Gaza still, along the israeli side of the Egyption border, the West Bank and so on. It has to be a single entity with defined borders and Jeruselum will need to have some sort of devolved status, making it open to everyone. It's a hell of a tough call. Plus ensuring the new Palestine isn't compromised by radicals who just want to target Israel. The only thing that will stop that hapening is prosperity. 


Online jungle

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Quite true Caller the 2 state solution isn't new
But since Netanyahu came to power there's been a great effort to discorage it
 Total agree with that the majority of both sides would accept the 2 state solution, borders and everything else would be a headache to agree on but  if there's a will hopefully an agreement will be reached
They have been close before
I feel like there is now a desire there that hasn't been for decades
Once netenyahu and his collation of fanatics are gone
As you say prosperity through a viable state will be the key


Online Roger

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Hamas have released 12 Thai hostages which is wonderful news. The remaining Thais held (13?) will hopefully be in the next tranche ?

In the DT, pictures of the 12 Israelis released - women and children. A fantastic moment for these Families and the agony goes on for many more   :(

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/24/hamas-hostages-who-released-israel-gaza-war/
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Offline Alfie

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Quite true Caller the 2 state solution isn't new
But since Netanyahu came to power there's been a great effort to discorage it
 Total agree with that the majority of both sides would accept the 2 state solution, borders and everything else would be a headache to agree on but  if there's a will hopefully an agreement will be reached
They have been close before
I feel like there is now a desire there that hasn't been for decades
Once netenyahu and his collation of fanatics are gone
As you say prosperity through a viable state will be the key

This week, Joe Biden wrote in the Washington Post that he favours two state solution. Let's see if his words actually lead to a state for the Palestinians or if it is just something expedient for him to say for domestic political purposes.

Excerpts below:

Quote
"The Palestinian people deserve a state of their own..."

"Our goal should not be simply to stop the war for today — it should be to end the war forever, break the cycle of unceasing violence, and build something stronger in Gaza and across the Middle East so that history does not keep repeating itself."

"This much is clear: A two-state solution is the only way to ensure the long-term security of both the Israeli and Palestinian people."

"A two-state solution — two peoples living side by side with equal measures of freedom, opportunity and dignity — is where the road to peace must lead."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/18/joe-biden-gaza-hamas-putin/

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/11/19/icymi-joe-biden-the-u-s-wont-back-down-from-the-challenge-of-putin-and-hamas/

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOYh9rQcOC8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOYh9rQcOC8</a>




Online Roger

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Wonderful to see another 4 Thai and 13 Israeli hostages released last night. The bickering goes on but let's hope this continues a while. It's touching to see the photos here and what an ordeal they have gone through https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/26/israel-hamas-war-second-group-hostages-freed/

Not to forget the horrors suffered daily by all Gaza's population as this war progresses.

Thanks Alfie and Caller - I think it was Bill Clinton that got closest to taking Israel along the 2 state path - Israel's PM Yizak Rabin got assassinated for his trouble ! Ever since then Netanyahu has worked hard against the idea.
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

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The double bad news : "Hamas needs to track down dozens of hostages in Gaza before it can extend the current ceasefire, Qatar’s prime minister has said. Sheikh Mohammed bin Abdulrahman al-Thani told the Financial Times that Hamas cannot agree an extension to the current ceasefire until it locates 40 women and children who are allegedly being held by civilians, gangs and other Islamist groups. “We don’t yet have any clear information how many they can find because . . . one of the purposes [of the pause] is they [Hamas] will have time to search for the rest of the missing people,” he said." https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/26/israel-hamas-latest-news1/

If Hamas have no hostages to hand to continue the exchanges, surely the fighting will resume. It's ominous - there's almost 200 still missing  :( :(

Meantime, when the war against Hamas does end one day, there won't be a lot of Gaza left : https://youtu.be/jD_uBLAhfgA

Oh dear  ::)
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein