FAA disregarded safety flaws during the certification of Boeing 737 MAX, sources

[KiwiCanadian]

Seattle - While the preliminary results of the Flight 302 investigation reveal more data connecting two recent Boeing 737 MAX crashes, the certification process of the 737 MAX by the US Federal Aviation Agency is under scrutiny.

https://airlinerwatch.com/faa-disregarded-security-flaws-during-the-certification-of-boeing-737-max-sources-claim/

This could get a little nasty me thinks
KC

[KiwiCanadian]

more from seattle times here:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

[Roger]

KC thanks for posting those links . . . 

''Going against a long Boeing tradition of giving the pilot complete control of the aircraft, the MAX’s new MCAS automatic flight control system was designed to act in the background, without pilot input.''

That's bloody shocking. And Boeing are glibly talking about redesigning the software - I'd suggest they might redesign the wing or the plane itself.

I'd guess that now the lid has been taken off these events - it'll be VERY nasty for Boeing. And quite rightly    Thanks again.

[KiwiCanadian]

The start of the MAX-8 & -9 problem is the "Leap Engines", they are larger and required the engine to be moved forward and higher compared to the previous model. This put the thrust centerline forward an higher, which in certain conditions will cause the A/C to pitch nose up. The best way to correct this is with a longer landing gear and leave the engine in its proper location.
the cost to making the gear longer, was to Boeing prohibitive, both the wing and fuselage would have to be redesigned as well as all the ground equipment to support such an aircraft.
When one understands Boeing's philosophy of grandfathering new model aircraft from the previous ones you will see how this drastically cuts cost, look at the shape of the cockpit widows, they are basically the same as the first 707, cockpit instrument panel layout has taken Boeing a long time to come into the modern glass cockpit due to this as well.
The Cost of the A/C, crew training, spare parts and part commonality all play into this for a cheaper product to the airlines.
But this one has gone to far and Boeing AND  the FAA will pay for this in the long run.
The winners in this will be Airbus and the new Russian MC21

[caller]

Thanks for this information KC. It's quite scary what's been allowed to happen and seemingly with a complete disregard s to the consequences.

[nookiebear]

The start of the MAX-8 & -9 problem is the "Leap Engines", they are larger and required the engine to be moved forward and higher compared to the previous model. This put the thrust centerline forward an higher, which in certain conditions will cause the A/C to pitch nose up. The best way to correct this is with a longer landing gear and leave the engine in its proper location.
the cost to making the gear longer, was to Boeing prohibitive, both the wing and fuselage would have to be redesigned as well as all the ground equipment to support such an aircraft.
When one understands Boeing's philosophy of grandfathering new model aircraft from the previous ones you will see how this drastically cuts cost, look at the shape of the cockpit widows, they are basically the same as the first 707, cockpit instrument panel layout has taken Boeing a long time to come into the modern glass cockpit due to this as well.
The Cost of the A/C, crew training, spare parts and part commonality all play into this for a cheaper product to the airlines.
But this one has gone to far and Boeing AND  the FAA will pay for this in the long run.
The winners in this will be Airbus and the new Russian MC21

Correct me if I am wrong but I understood the nose leg had been extended to allow ground clearance for the bigger engine

[KiwiCanadian]

This could be true, the info I received did not mention the nose gear, it would be easier to elongate the nose wheel bay in the fuselage rather than the main gear wells in the bottom of the wing. as you would end up with the wheels touching each other, which would require a completely new wing, Not what Boeing would want to do.

[Roger]

The Lion Air crash 5 months ago seems to have provided enough indications of  serious problem. Seems to me that the 737 MAX fleet should have been grounded as soon as the Pilot's last words had been listened to . . . .
Waiting for a second crash to occur, after what they learnt then, is criminal :-

''Lion Air jet crashed killing all 189 on board after take off from Jakarta in October
Cockpit recording 'reveals pilots scoured a handbook as the plane nosedived'
But they 'ran out of time' before the Boeing Max 8 jet plunged into the sea''.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6829335/Cockpit-voice-recorder-doomed-Lion-Air-jet-depicts-pilots-frantic-search-fix-sources.html

[Roger]

Before this matter is put to bed, I'm guessing that some at Boeing might see jail cells. Imagine - Boeing knew the problems with the design of this aircraft and did not advise Airlines, instruct Pilots or provide remedial systems for the fault 

''One pilot claims Boeing 'did not send manuals' on new MCAS automated system

The source from Ethiopian Airlines said: 'Actually we know more about the MCAS system from the media than from Boeing' ''

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6834089/Ethiopian-crash-captain-untrained-737-MAX-simulator-source.html

''The Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines planes did not have two safety features in their cockpits when they crashed five months apart, officials say.

Optional safety features - an angle of attack indicator and a disagree light - are not mandated by the Federal Aviation Administration.

Features are only installed by Boeing if the airlines pay for the optional add-ons.

An angle of attack indicator displays how much the nose is tilted up or down.

The disagree light activates if the attack readings do not match and give contradictory signals.

Boeing plans to make the disagree light free of charge as part of a forthcoming software update to the 737 MAX fleet in the wake of the two fatal crashes.''

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6835471/Boeing-says-optional-warning-light-fitted-standard.html

You couldn't make it up 

[rdrokit]

The aircraft design is 50 years old. The original 737-100 was one of the best aircraft of its time. Originally built low to the ground because 50 years ago you deplaned down a ladder to the tarmac and hand loaded luggage. The ground clearance on the bottom of the engine to the runway was 17 inches which I think was the minimum allowed back then. Then the problem began as newer engines had larger diameters so the engine pillions were tilted forward so the larger engines had ground clearance. This caused the aerodynamics of the plane to change causing a nose up problem which Boeing correct not with an airframe design change but with added computer systems. I think it is time to retire the airframe.

[KiwiCanadian]

Yep total agree, that's Boeing’s total abuse of the grandfathering laws and hoodwinking the FAA in the process.
As governments worldwide cut back on costs everyone is affected, this is putting a server dent in the public's confidence in Boeing and FAA

[Roger]

Boeing knew the 'limitations' of the 737 Max in flight - it defies belief that, after the first crash, the whole fleet was not grounded immediately while a manual bypass was fitted and full training of Pilots was ensured :-

''The Indonesian carrier Garuda has become the first airline to scrap its order for the Boeing 737 Max, saying it was cancelling a multibillion-dollar deal due to lack of public trust in a jet which has crashed twice in five months. The move came as the manufacturer Boeing attempted to tackle fears about the safety of the 737 Max, which has crashed in both Ethiopia and Indonesia with the loss of 346 lives, by building enhanced warning devices as standard into every plane.

Garuda had so far taken just one of 50 737 Max planes it has on an order worth up to $6bn on listed prices. A spokesman said: “We have sent a letter to Boeing requesting that the order be cancelled. “Garuda passengers in Indonesia have lost trust and no longer have the confidence.” After two deadly disasters in five months, can Boeing survive?''

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/22/indonesian-airline-garuda-cancels-order-for-49-boeing-737-max-8-jets

Thanks KC and RDRO - most informative . .

[Roger]

KC / RDRO - this YouTube explains the B737Max8 problems exactly as you did. Some nice graphics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2tuKiiznsY

How could Boeing be so irresponsible ? 

[Roger]

''In 2017, Boeing learned that the angle-of-attack (AOA) disagree alert — a standard feature on all 737 MAX aircraft — didn't work on the majority of the planes. The company determined that the alert was not necessary for safe operation, so it did not inform operators or the FAA.''

Boeing design a Plane with an inherent fault in flight stability and don't bother to make sure Pilots are always aware of it and can always be alerted to it and control it 

Have heads rolled yet ? If not, why not ?

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/05/06/boeing-angle-of-attack-disagree-alert/

[KiwiCanadian]

Rogue Boeing 737 Max planes ‘with minds of their own’
From 60 Minutes Australia

Well worth watching, I hope a lot of people get to see this, those of us in the Industry as well.

This will in the public’s view put a huge stain on the Boeing and the FAA.

As noted near the end of this documentary is the comment “What else has got through?”

It is not hard to search the internet and find this is not the only case of Boeing rushing or covering thing’s up and I am sure that many more will come to light.

Very sad that it has come to this RIP to those that gave there lives to bring this for the world to see.

I think the flying public will have the last say on what aircraft they want to fly, & this will hurt Boeing more than anything.
For the immediate future I will certainly research my flights and check the aircraft that I will be flying and change if I have to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QytfYyHmxtc&t=625s

[Roger]

Thanks for that KC. Your link connects at 9 mins 55 secs where the crux of the matter lies, the bloody 737 MAX 8 doesn't fly properly. Fitting the enhanced engine forward and higher on the wing created an inherent tendency to stall. Answer - redesign please !

The compromise - MCAS software to correct 'nose up' - triggered from just a single sensor. Apparently more than 200 cases of malfunction have occurred. Pilots had not been informed about MCAS, trained to cope with effects in flight OR given any option to bypass a malfunction.

If Boeing imagine the Industry or it's Customers will now be calmed by software changes I believe they are much mistaken - could this be the end of Boeing ?

As you say KC,  “What else has got through?” I hope there will now be forensic examination of the flight behaviour / characteristics of all recent Boeing aircraft, such as the 787 Dreamliner. 

Heartbreaking stuff R.I.P.

[KiwiCanadian]

As you say KC,  “What else has got through?” I hope there will now be forensic examination of the flight behavior / characteristics of all recent Boeing aircraft, such as the 787 Dreamliner. 

Heartbreaking stuff R.I.P.

It is not only the flight behavior that needs scrutinizing, I have heard of air-frame parts built by substandard suppliers that even Boeing's own procurement people red flagged and were told to move on. I think the whole company needs to be redressed starting at the top, Muilenburg needs to resign along with several others.

Flying used to be safer than crossing the street, I feel Boeing is trying to change that.

[Roger]

Here comes the bullshit 

''A charm offensive by Boeing to persuade airlines, crews and passengers to rally behind its 737 Max plane is already running into resistance. The effort, which includes daily calls with carriers as well as meetings with pilots and flight attendants, is being hampered by a problem of the company’s own making. After a bungled response to two deadly crashes involving the jet, Boeing is facing credibility problems.''

https://news.abs-cbn.com/business/05/09/19/turbulence-as-boeing-goes-on-charm-offensive-for-737-max

Reassuring ? 

''The company is preparing to submit a software fix in the coming weeks for US regulators to approve.''

NO thanks - please can we have a new airframe ?

[Roger]

''Even if Boeing convinces pilots and federal regulators that a software fix makes its grounded 737 MAX airliner safe to fly, passengers are likely to balk. A survey from Barclays Investment Bank shows 44% of fliers in North America and Europe would wait at least a year before traveling on the single-aisle jet once it returns to commercial service after two overseas crashes. Fifty-two percent, meanwhile, would choose another aircraft if given the opportunity, according to reports.''

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/half-of-airline-passengers-afraid-of-boeing-737-max-after-crashes

[Roger]

''Dear Boeing: Repeat after me: ‘It’s our fault. We screwed up. We’re sorry.’''

''“We regret the impact the grounding has had on our customers and their passengers,” Muilenburg says. Ya do? Really? Shame you didn’t also regret, sincerely, the impact the ground had on those 346 passengers and crew, as well regret the central role neglect and bumbling at Boeing seem to have played in putting them there.  But that acknowledgment is coming. It has to.''

https://chicago.suntimes.com/business/boeing-airplane-crash-737-max-apology-sorry/