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Putin, Russia, Ukraine, NATO etc.

Roger · 46 · 1980

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Online Roger

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I don't think K-F have many Russian Members - but they will have to forgive me.

Dear Vladimir - in charge of poisoning citizens on UK territory, shooting passenger planes out of the sky, doping all athletes in sight and pursuing all general bad faith with democracy in his own Country, says Russia does not intend to invade Ukraine.

Which means - he DOES !!

Any reports of military movements away from the Ukraine borders probably means an attack, is IMMINENT.

I could feel really self-righteous about this were it not for the UK inflicting horrors on Iraq (and other places), in the recent past.

Surely the answer is to invite Ukraine AND Russia to join NATO - forthwith.

What is it in the heads of these sad bustards that impels them to do the worst ?

Be kind.
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Offline Coolkorat

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Commentators seem to suggest today is the day. I feel very sorry for the people of Ukraine - it must be terrible to live with the threat of war on a daily basis. Sadly I think Putin will get away with whatever he does; no-one has the stomach for any meaningful actions to blunt his ambitions. If he does go in the people of Ukraine would be best advised to let them in unopposed to protect lives, and peacefully protest.


Offline Alfie

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I don't think Russia will invade Ukraine but if it does, what do you think they will invade? All of Ukraine or just part of it? 


Online Roger

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Had a quick look at the map Alfie and I'd guess the Russians would come from the North through Chernobyl direct to Kiev and from the Southern and Eastern borders as far as Kiev - occupying everywhere East of Kiev and leaving the far west of Ukraine 'free'.

I was happy to see you don't think they'll do it and hope you are right. CK you're not so optimistic as Alfie but regarding a passive response, IMO that'd be a folly - the Russians would crush any peaceful or democratic protest in Ukraine the way they do inside  their own borders.
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

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From the DT - (I have tried to copy it carefully). A tragic situation developing and if Putin cannot relent, it's gonna change our European world, for sure. Maybe the same as most Brits, I'm not a Fan of Macron, but, whatever his motives, I have to give him this, (as again below), ‘Blessed are the peace makers’ :-

"Vladimir Putin has embarrassed Emmanuel Macron - again. The French President's attempt to broker a deal with Russia could be doing more harm than good. Is Emmanuel Macron a glutton for punishment? It certainly looks that way given his willingness to seek to broker peace with Vladimir Putin only to be humiliated. The first slap came after the French president spent five hours across that endlessly long marble table in Moscow to wrench a commitment not to escalate the situation on the Ukrainian border from the Russian president. Within hours, intelligence on the ground suggested Putin had decided to ride roughshod over that pledge. Last night, the Elysée fired off an email at 1.46am announcing that Putin and Biden had agreed on the “principle” of a summit on “security and strategic stability in Europe” as long as Russia doesn’t invade Ukraine first.

No-one can fault the French president for trying. He called Putin twice, with the second call taking place after speaking with Joe Biden, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy, Boris Johnson and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz. Yet the sun was not up before the Kremlin made it clear that there were “no concrete plans” for a summit.

Is it worth Macron's effort to end up with egg on his face? The Macron camp insists it may yet pay off. "There is a diplomatic hope," France's minister for European affairs Clement Beaune told LCI television. "If there is still a chance to avoid war, to avoid a confrontation and build a political and diplomatic solution, then we need to take it.”

But that note of optimism was sharply dismissed in Washington, with one senior administration official scoffing: "Timing to be determined. Format to be determined. So it's all completely notional.” Indeed it could be argued that Macron’s approach is doing more harm than good as it allows Putin to retain a veneer of diplomacy all the better mask his bellicose resolve. As defence expert François Heisbourg put it: “Putin, by escalating progressively, may indeed have given himself the ‘best’ of two worlds: increasing the violence of his stranglehold on Ukraine while maintaining open the semblance of a diplomatic track.”

With French presidential elections only two months away, some European diplomats are irked at what they see as Macron’s De Gaulle-like delusions of grandeur. They point to the General's grand postwar plans for French “exceptionalism” in which he sought to distance himself from the US and deal with the USSR on his own terms. The result was arguably a weakened Nato and precious little else to show for it.

Macron supporters say it is too early to claim that summit plans are dead in the water.  “France was referring to the ‘principle’ of a summit," tweeted Gérard Araud, former French ambassador to Israel, the UN and US. "Principle endorsed yesterday by the White House. Of course, it is premature to organize it." On Monday morning, the Elysée insisted that Macron had been asked by Biden to make the summit offer. "He is a facilitator," said a French presidential adviser. "We're slowly changing the course of things. We're creating a diplomatic perspective the Kremlin accepts." "It is today possible to move towards a summit... Now it is up to President Putin to make his choice."

But Le Figaro asked whether a politics of "appeasement" with Putin was worth it. "It may have short-term advantages," the outlet wrote in an editorial. "But in the long run, it's hard to see how brandishing an 'olive branch' before tanks is a policy capable of forcing Vladimir Putin's respect." The French President has more to lose than gain by sticking his neck out, argued Mr Araud. His was, he said, a “thankless task”. “Probable failure awaits him and criticism will be his only recompense.” “He may fail but when peace is at stake, no effort should be spared. ‘Blessed are the peace makers’.”

Given the events on the ground, there may be no time for blessings.
"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/21/putin-has-embarrassed-emmanuel-macron/

God bless Ukraine . . . .
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

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At the UN yesterday, China abstained instead of voting against the resolution, (supported by more than 70 countries), which condemned Putin's madness in Ukraine. I had expected China to vote against the Resolution. India abstained - I'm guessing that they are in deep hock to Russia in some way. The UAE also abstained, failing to join the other 11 Security Council Members condemning the invasion. What's their excuse I wonder?

Irrelevant as it is in the great scheme of things - food for thought when buying my next ticket for the UK - it won't be Emirates or Etihad  >:(
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 08:55:57 AM by Roger »
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online jungle

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What is just as mind boggling is Israel did not vote to condemn Russia even after requests from the US ?


Online Roger

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Hi Jungle - is that right ? Seems odd.

I had a quick look and found this https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkfuhvcg5
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

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Russia's war on Ukraine is heartbreaking, horrific. Putin and his mafia have taken Russia so far out on a limb - how there can be any possible improvement until he is deposed in some way ? It seems the Russian people and many in the armed forces doubt or hate what Russia is doing.

Zelenskiy's heroism is something I will never forget. Yesterday I see that he applied for Ukraine to join the EU, stopping short of a move to NATO for obvious reasons. Sadly Zelenskiy is very unlikely to survive this attack on Kiev.

Yet Ukraine was NO threat to Russia be it IN or OUT of NATO. NATO is a organisation for DEFENCE of Member's territory - which of course is why Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join.

The quickest resolution of these horrors will be if someone deposes the mad Putin or he is 'eliminated' in some way.
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online jungle

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Roger it was at the security council that Israel  didn't vote for condemning Russia
Much to  US annoyance
They will be voting for condemning Russia at the general assembly  vote
Surprising when you consider their history
 with occupations :0)

https://www.axios.com/us-protests-israel-refusal-condemn-russia-un-db20c1ce-16d2-4782-9ab8-461105a6cce5.html


Online Roger

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Thanks Jungle - got it now. Israel refused to co-sponsor the US resolution though 87 other Countries did ?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 08:44:28 PM by Roger »
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

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Crikey !

"The company behind Nord Stream 2 has laid off all its staff and is said to be considering insolvency after the controversial pipeline was hammered by sanctions.

Nord Stream 2 AG, which is registered in Switzerland and owned by Kremlin-controlled gas giant Gazprom, said it was forced to terminate contracts with employees after it was targeted by US sanctions."
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

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CK in reply 2 you indicated that resistance would be a bloody matter. Correct ! Where does this go now? Ukraine cannot resist these Russian forces for much longer - they will flatten Kiev, kill Zelinskiy,  occupy Ukraine and maybe attack other territories too. It's dreadful.

The West including BJ are rightly mindful that there is no deterrent with Putin around. He will use nuclear weapons at the drop of a hat and with hardly a thought if he finds himself losing face. The equation that exists with 2 sane opponents is not there. So the West are right about not attempting a 'no fly' zone etc. It will be very difficult to resupply the Ukraine military as Russia takes a grip.

IMO negotiations have no chance of success. Hopefully Putin can be deposed one way or another, a bullet being first choice.
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online jungle

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There is talk that if NATO and the west are afraid of Putin's threats now they will never confront him  myself I feel I agree with that
  For putin to use nukes the military leadership and even the launchers have to agree to push that button
  As for the present situation I just can't see  Putin controling Ukraine if/once the Ukraine government/army is broken
   Maybe NATOs last hope is to support and supply a guerilla war tieing up Putin in a meat grinder as he slowly bleeds to death (one hopes)
I just can't see how Putin controls Ukraine with its citizens against him and the west supporting them and the  applying  of sanctions
   One important point I believe is that for a guerilla war resistance to succeed Zelenskyy must survive he's now such a focal point and the natural Churchillein leader he can't be caught  in Kiev if it falls


Online rdrokit

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I can see Ukraine turning into another Afganistan for the Russians. Many countries will continue to export weapons to the Ukrainians and it will turn out to be another gorilla war. Interesting article on Ukraine calling for outside military help.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/elite-forces-veterans-volunteer-to-fight-for-ukraine?utm_source=theblaze-dailyAM&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily-Newsletter__AM%202022-03-02&utm_term=ACTIVE%20LIST%20-%20TheBlaze%20Daily%20AM#toggle-gdpr


Online Roger

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Jungle - that's right. There's not much more that NATO can do or this war will go nuclear at the drop of a hat. Europe and much of the USA will be flattened. Another Chernobyl  is imminent as the Russians are shelling Ukraine's largest nuclear power station.

RDRO thanks for that link. Zelinskiy is unlikely to survive the onslaught of Kiev. Of course the Ukrainians will fight on as they can, but Ukraine is not Afghanistan. The terrain is not so accommodating and the cultural background very different. Ukraine's previous PM was interviewed on Sky this morning - toting a powerful pistol and an automatic weapon at his side.

Putin will never relent so IMO all we can hope for is his demise. Germany HAS to stop buying Russian oil and gas NOW and the sanctions should be of indefinite duration. Outside Putin's lunatic circle, many Russians in the military and other enlightened elites, know that Putin has to go - preferably in hail of bullets.

It's hard to watch Ukraine's people suffering without tears in the eyes. A plague on these murderous Russian monsters and let's hope the majority of good Russian people can soon have their Country back.
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Hector

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Online jungle

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Roger I think you misunderstand me
I'm saying if we (the free west)  don't stand up to putin now just because he threatened to use nukes. What will happen if he invades Finland a non NATO county or even Latvia a NATO county  a few years later under some made up excuse.
He threatens Nukes again??
Putin's been investing billions in misinformation campaigns for years now ,for a reason. What is it other than being able to get away with  these current moves ,while the west is in disarray

His army take over of Ukraine has to fail or he's doing this again I fear
I'm concerned a guerilla campaign would fissel out
Maybe volunteer forces ,lease loan air craft tanks ect
Putin says peace keeping we say sorry can't stop volunteers f.. K you

     For me I think its also clear now the influence Russians have had on media and government through political  donations etc
   Especially the British Tory party ex KGB officers having political influence.. Unbelievable
Time to clean house... We hope


Online Roger

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Hi Jungle - I agree with that broadly so not sure where the misunderstanding is. It's the 'just because' that worries me. You know, 'pick your fights'.

ATM IMHO, the best hope is that the 'West' can pile on enough pressure so that a military or other 'elite' manage to take shithead Putin out.

The latest hope is the UN and trying to get China involved in calming it.

Be as brave as you like, but risk a world wide Aleppo !

Inspiring https://uk.yahoo.com/news/fact-mythmaking-blend-ukraines-information-190837967.html
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/china-broke-silence-russias-invasion-113140130.html
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Hector

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Just a few thoughts.... I have an old Army friend, who lives with his Polish wife some 50 km from the Ukraine border in the far south west of Poland.  He has turned his B&B into a refugee hostel and the stories many of the refugees tell are pretty horrifying.  The average Russian soldier is not a nice guy!
I spent 13 years in what was then West Germany waiting for the Soviet Army to come pouring through the Fulda Gap. Of course, it never happened and I don't really think it was ever going to, but then the Wall came down, the Cold War ended and the USSR ceased to exist as such. I don't think Putin ever recovered from the shock and there is definitely a big element of ; “let's make Russia great again!” (where have we heard that one before?!) in his rhetoric. But whether he is a bit Doolally or not, he's a dangerous man. As an aside I was not entirely surprised to hear Trump saying what a smart lad he thought Putin was, although I notice he changed his tune a bit sharpish when he realised it wasn't going down that well even with some of his more rabid supporters!
The war in the Ukraine is a bad business all round and I think Putin has miscalculated on so many fronts: the speed he thought he could subdue Ukraine; the fighting spirit of the Ukrainians; the standard of Russian troops, leaders and equipment; world opinion and the willingness of “the world” (especially Europe) to actually combine and DO something. He has now become the biggest pariah since the Austrian house painter with the funny moustache and I don't think that was his aim. I'm also inclined to believe the reports that he is a few fries short of a Happy Meal, but quite what help that will be in ending this conflict I don't know. There HAS to be some sort of cease-fire, but brokered by whom – China!? I can see Russia being bogged down in Ukraine in the same way they were in Afghanistan, with possibly the same result. It sure ain't gonna be over tomorrow! There have been suggestions that presenting him with a 9mm pill to help recovery might be the answer – probably easier than a bomb under the conference table – but that might well create a different set of problems! One can only hope that he isn't paranoid or bonkers enough to press the nuclear button, otherwise all bets are off!