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Brexit

Alfie · 774 · 23404

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Online Teessider

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Why do you accuse Anton of having no understanding of the British? I am British and i think the decision is folly and a massive mistake by Cameron. The Tory manifesto is to remain in the single market yet May utters the inane comment that no deal is better than a bad deal. I understand why a lot of people voted leave but imo this was a success for lies and propaganda.
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Online caller

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I understand why a lot of people voted leave but imo this was a success for lies and propaganda.

I think you have nailed it there.

Although obviously I can't agree that it was a success for lies and propaganda. Most folk I know are more than capable of making up their own minds and weeding out the tosh. Friends and relatives on both sides had to do the same and like you, irrespective of how they voted, get why a lot of people voted to leave.

I don't think Anton does.


Offline Anton

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Friends and relatives on both sides had to do the same and like you, irrespective of how they voted, get why a lot of people voted to leave.

I don't think Anton does.

You are puffing yourself up, Caller: that "why" is so petty in the general geopolitical context that even a fool would see (and pity) it.
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Offline Anton

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Perhaps she is referring to the ending of the current situation of the supremacy of EU law or the slide towards a United States of Europe "superstate". There is no appetite for the latter in the UK.

Had we more "Churchills" than "Camerons" around today, the EU would work greatly.
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Online dam12641

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"We must build a kind of United States of Europe" - Churchill.

Ah, that old chestnut. Often dragged out, and nearly always out of context.
Even the slightest bit of research should reveal that if you were suggesting that Britain is part of Europe, Winston would think you insane.
Winston saw the free world consisting of three parts: the US, the British Empire and western Europe.

And he is still right - only because 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
The rest of western Europe doesn't understand the responsibilities involved in being part of 'the Free world'.
That is why they do not and will never understand Brexit.
That's ok, leave them to their socialist fantasies.
And when they have screwed it all up (again) they will still expect the real free world to come to their rescue (again).
Nor will they ever show any gratitude (again).



Online Roger

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''You are puffing yourself up, Caller: that "why" is so petty in the general geopolitical context that even a fool would see (and pity) it.''

Anton - that criticism of Caller's post is extremely unfair. I read the same post and thought it was a well balanced comment.

No need to keep going on about the Brexit campaign - neither side came out of the campaign with much credit.

You quote Winston Churchill - the whole point is that the UK could not get the 'kind' of U.S.E. that we wanted. Even though we asked. Repeatedly.
I don't think Churchill was advocating 'ever closer union', do you ?
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Offline Anton

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Winston saw the free world consisting of three parts: the US, the British Empire and western Europe.

That was in 1946. What if he was around today? Would he support the UK joining with the US rather than the "socialists"? Maybe. My point was simply that the EU would work better than it does with serious politicians around, be it with or without the UK in it.

The rest of western Europe doesn't understand the responsibilities involved in being part of 'the Free world'.

I don't know what you mean by "free world". Freedom is an abstract concept subject to political exploiting. The USA, for example, is not a "free" country for me, I don't know about you. To me what counts is peace and stability. In this sense, also that Mr. Woolfe in Caller's video got it all wrong IMHO.

From what I see, Brexit is not serving peace and stability in Europe. Who is shunning responsibilities here? Days after the breakaway letter, words of war are out already (about Gibraltar). Laughable for the moment, but later? And what if others choose to follow the example, now that populists are on the rise everywhere? Back in no time to what Churchill called the Dark Ages. Remember the Balkans. At that point, stay out of it if you can!

And when they have screwed it all up (again) they will still expect the real free world to come to their rescue (again).

Right: as if you never screwed anything up, you "real free world".
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Online Roger

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That's it Anton.
Your Devil is in the detail is it not ?
Quoting you - 'general geopolitical context that even a fool would see (and pity) it.'
Why not explain that ? Obfuscation IMO.

Please answer my question - re. Churchill and the comment you try to exploit.
Did Churchill want ever closer union ?

''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Offline dereklev

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Perhaps she is referring to the ending of the current situation of the supremacy of EU law or the slide towards a United States of Europe "superstate". There is no appetite for the latter in the UK.

Had we more "Churchills" than "Camerons" around today, the EU would work greatly.

Winston was an immense War Time leader but was very quickly rejected by the British electorate after the war.
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy shit…what a ride!” - Hunter S. Thompson


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You are puffing yourself up, Caller: that "why" is so petty in the general geopolitical context that even a fool would see (and pity) it.

Anton, I think you are either blinkered to the reasons behind Brexit, or regard them as petty and your post gives the reason why. You can only see it in one dimension and God help anyone who gets in the way of the project.

For me, there is no pride and only shame in belonging to an organisation that tear gasses it's own pensioners when protesting about 25% cuts to their living standards, whose own policies promote and tolerate extreme youth employment in the southern states, putting their futures at risk and festering discontent, especially about the north / south divide, that expects others to protect them still - and these are just the ones I can be bothered to relay at the moment and all for what? Imagine any of that happening in the UK and their would be riots. From the EU? Not a whimper, apart from more of the same. It's shameful.

Before lambasting others for their opinions, give a bit more thought to how you relay that and in particular the holier than thou approach.


Offline Alfie

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Friends and relatives on both sides had to do the same and like you, irrespective of how they voted, get why a lot of people voted to leave.

I don't think Anton does.

You are puffing yourself up, Caller: that "why" is so petty in the general geopolitical context that even a fool would see (and pity) it.

Anton, in your opinion, what is the "why"?
There are none so blind as those who will not see.


Offline Alfie

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Perhaps she is referring to the ending of the current situation of the supremacy of EU law or the slide towards a United States of Europe "superstate". There is no appetite for the latter in the UK.

Had we more "Churchills" than "Camerons" around today, the EU would work greatly.

As Churchill died over 50 years ago, I will make my earlier post clearer for you. "There is no appetite for the latter in the UK" now.   ;D
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 09:50:06 PM by Alfie »
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Offline Alfie

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From what I see, Brexit is not serving peace and stability in Europe. Who is shunning responsibilities here? Days after the breakaway letter, words of war are out already (about Gibraltar). Laughable for the moment, but later? And what if others choose to follow the example, now that populists are on the rise everywhere? Back in no time to what Churchill called the Dark Ages. Remember the Balkans. At that point, stay out of it if you can!

If the countries of the EU cannot survive peacefully together without the UK, surely it means the whole EU project is a failure.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.


Online Roger

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Just MHO. But. I think the 'lost 27' have mislaid their nerve.
The EU didn't help us stay in the EU but they are frightened to be on their own.
So let's get out. The UK will be OK. So will Europe.
But the Europeans are 'frit'. 'Frit'. And 'Frit' !
The EU is a total mess. Run by Jobsworths 'par excellence'.

Anton is obdurate about all of this but Anton - have some faith in your own Nation.
You'll be OK.
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


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Alfie,
I think you meant over 50 years ago

As Churchill died over 5 years ago,
One should never do wrong in return, nor mistreat any man, no matter how one has been mistreated by him.”
- Socrates


Offline Alfie

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Alfie,
I think you meant over 50 years ago

As Churchill died over 5 years ago,

Yes, I did, Thanks, Jivvy. I thought I had typed 50 but obviously not.

Just goes to show what a big difference a zero can make. :)
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Offline Anton

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Anton, in your opinion, what is the "why"?

The same everybody is complaining about: they felt they were suffering insult added to injury. The insult of being bossed around by those in Bruxelles (as they thought) added to the injury of having to pay for it even dearer than others do (as they thought). Same refrain I hear in my country and from my French and Italian friends all the time. Many Germans are unhappy, too: they feel they are the ones to bear all the burden. Hardly surprising. Welcome to community life!

Other members are trying to hold out, at least until now. And not "without a whimper" as Caller says. There are so many protests everywhere. Yet, they try holding on to this project, this dream; they try considering themselves first and foremost as European - not that it comes easy to anybody, stop thinking yourself as so much different. Maybe other members can see better than you the priceless stakes represented by a war-free Europe after centuries of destructive wars (almost always with your active participation). But what count to you are your "appetites", the need to show "who is the boss" to transitory characters such as Juncker or Merkel, and preventing a Mr. Tannock to get his MEP wages. Enough to go ahead and jeopardise the whole fragile European project. The ruthless Anglo-Saxons. The "boxing and bullying" Englishmen (Thackeray). The Papist slayers.

I know what you will object now: that down below we are all the same, we all care only for our respective "appetites" the same way. I would disagree: not exactly the same way. But I will not enter into that.

Now that you're out, let's see if you can come up with a good alternative proposal to build a Europe according to your appetites, and which is tempting also to the others. Show us you can do better. Before sending warships out, if possible. We are not your enemies, your real enemies are our enemies too.


If the countries of the EU cannot survive peacefully together without the UK, surely it means the whole EU project is a failure.

That's not exactly what I wrote. What if there will be no more EU?
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Offline Alfie

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Anton, in your opinion, what is the "why"?

The same everybody is complaining about: they felt they were suffering insult added to injury. The insult of being bossed around by those in Bruxelles (as they thought) added to the injury of having to pay for it even dearer than others do (as they thought). Same refrain I hear in my country and from my French and Italian friends all the time. Many Germans are unhappy, too: they feel they are the ones to bear all the burden. Hardly surprising. Welcome to community life!

Other members are trying to hold out, at least until now. And not "without a whimper" as Caller says. There are so many protests everywhere. Yet, they try holding on to this project, this dream; they try considering themselves first and foremost as European - not that it comes easy to anybody, stop thinking yourself as so much different. Maybe other members can see better than you the priceless stakes represented by a war-free Europe after centuries of destructive wars (almost always with your active participation). But what count to you are your "appetites", the need to show "who is the boss" to transitory characters such as Juncker or Merkel, and preventing a Mr. Tannock to get his MEP wages. Enough to go ahead and jeopardise the whole fragile European project. The ruthless Anglo-Saxons. The "boxing and bullying" Englishmen (Thackeray). The Papist slayers.

I know what you will object now: that down below we are all the same, we all care only for our respective "appetites" the same way. I would disagree: not exactly the same way. But I will not enter into that.

Now that you're out, let's see if you can come up with a good alternative proposal to build a Europe according to your appetites, and which is tempting also to the others. Show us you can do better. Before sending warships out, if possible. We are not your enemies, your real enemies are our enemies too.


If the countries of the EU cannot survive peacefully together without the UK, surely it means the whole EU project is a failure.

That's not exactly what I wrote. What if there will be no more EU?

If there are so many people complaining and protesting about the "project", there must be something wrong with the "project", and/or the way it is being managed. It's surprising to see you think the EU is "fragile". Really, if it is so fragile, put it out of its misery. Manage a dignified end to it but end it. What if there will be no more EU? So what? No real loss to the world. It is a manufactured institution and not very old. The world, and Europe, will survive without it.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.


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Other members are trying to hold out, at least until now. And not "without a whimper" as Caller says. There are so many protests everywhere. Yet, they try holding on to this project, this dream; they try considering themselves first and foremost as European

Can you clarify who 'they' are?


Offline Anton

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If there are so many people complaining and protesting about the "project", there must be something wrong with the "project", and/or the way it is being managed. It's surprising to see you think the EU is "fragile"

I'm the first one admitting that it's not being managed as it should. It's not surprising that I call it "fragile", I've been saying something like that since the start, see reply no. 51. That doesn't mean it's a terminally ill patient yet. And Brexit remains a vile move IMHO.

What if there will be no more EU? So what? No real loss to the world. It is a manufactured institution and not very old. The world, and Europe, will survive without it.

So many presumptions, how do you know what would Europe become without it?
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