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Brexit

Alfie · 801 · 25764

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Offline Alfie

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And Brexit remains a vile move IMHO.

Vile? What a ridiculous thing to say. Are you trying to toll this thread now? There was a referendum. The result was to leave the EU. 

What if there will be no more EU? So what? No real loss to the world. It is a manufactured institution and not very old. The world, and Europe, will survive without it.

So many presumptions, how do you know what would Europe become without it?

No more than you know what it will be like with it but as the EU is less than 10 years old and the continent of Europe is considerably older, I don't think a well managed ending to the EU will lead to any great world or European catastrophe.
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Offline Alfie

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Other members are trying to hold out, at least until now. And not "without a whimper" as Caller says. There are so many protests everywhere. Yet, they try holding on to this project, this dream; they try considering themselves first and foremost as European

Can you clarify who 'they' are?

I didn't post that comment, caller.
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Online Pompui

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This is getting good. I don't watch soap operas anymore, instead I log onto KF.com to get my daily fix of Re:Brexit.  ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? :-\ :'( ::)
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Offline Anton

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And Brexit remains a vile move IMHO.

Vile? What a ridiculous thing to say. Are you trying to toll this thread now? There was a referendum. The result was to leave the EU. 

I'm not trying to toll troll anything down. Your Parliament isn't legally bound by referendum results. Let alone in a case like this (sorry, I will not explain what I mean by "a case like this"). The result was a vile ugly populist triumph.

So many presumptions, how do you know what would Europe become without it?

No more than you know what it will be like with it but as the EU is less than 10 years old and the continent of Europe is considerably older, I don't think a well managed ending to the EU will lead to any great world or European catastrophe.

Nobody's talking about great world catastrophes. As to Europe, facts we know for sure are: (1) that Europe had already been a catastrophe several times in the past, up to recently before the Treaty of Rome, but (2) never after the Treaty of Rome - except in the Balkans, in circumstances that should only serve as a loud warning call today.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 07:01:33 PM by Anton »
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Offline Alfie

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Your Parliament isn't legally bound by referendum results. Let alone in a case like this (sorry, I will not explain what I mean by "a case like this").

Legally bound it might not be, but duty bound it most certainly is. To have a referendum and then to ignore the result would be a catastrophe for the UK - but it just would not happen. The vote would be respected whatever the outcome. However, I understand that other EU countries might not have the same standards as the UK.

The result was a vile populist triumph.

Perhaps you can explain exactly what you mean by "populist". That leaving the EU was a more popular vote than staying in the EU?
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Offline Alfie

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<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0buD0s5ULU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0buD0s5ULU</a>
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Online Roger

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Sorry Guys - re. 'toll' do you both mean 'troll'. Just asking. No offence. Not used to seeing the word toll used in a context I see here.

Populism - seems to be a word used commonly now implying some sort of slur or insult. But is it ? My Dictionary defines populism as below :-

1.
the political philosophy of the People's party.
2.
(lowercase) any of various, often antiestablishment or anti-intellectual political movements or philosophies that offer unorthodox solutions or policies and appeal to the common person rather than according with traditional party or partisan ideologies.
3.
(lowercase) grass-roots democracy; working-class activism; egalitarianism.
4.
(lowercase) representation or extolling of the common person, the working class, the underdog, etc.

So populism can be 'grass roots democracy' which indeed, IMO, is what we have just had in the Brexit referendum. So populism ain't necessarily wrong.
In fact it can be good. As was the Referendum IMO and the result endorsing Brexit.

Anton you write, ''The result was a vile populist triumph''. Using the 'V' word is quite inappropriate in this context.

What you have seen is democracy at work in a different way. You may not like the result but then, you were outvoted I'm afraid.

Pompui - nice one. 
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Offline Alfie

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Sorry Guys - re. 'toll' do you both mean 'troll'. Just asking. No offence. Not used to seeing the word toll used in a context I see here.

Yes. Another typo. Sorry about that.
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Online Roger

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OK Alfie thanks. Just wondered if I was missing something.


 

''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online caller

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Other members are trying to hold out, at least until now. And not "without a whimper" as Caller says. There are so many protests everywhere. Yet, they try holding on to this project, this dream; they try considering themselves first and foremost as European

Can you clarify who 'they' are?

I didn't post that comment, caller.

Sorry Alfie, that was my poor 'quoting' skills. I'll ask it again as I'm still interested.


Online caller

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Other members are trying to hold out, at least until now. And not "without a whimper" as Caller says. There are so many protests everywhere. Yet, they try holding on to this project, this dream; they try considering themselves first and foremost as European

Who is 'they' Anton, I'm still interested.


Offline Anton

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Sorry Guys - re. 'toll' do you both mean 'troll'. Just asking. No offence. Not used to seeing the word toll used in a context I see here.

Yes. Another typo. Sorry about that.

I thought it was an English expression yet unknown to me, but I guessed the meaning anyway  ;D
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Offline Anton

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To have a referendum and then to ignore the result would be a catastrophe for the UK

I really don't think so.

I understand that other EU countries might not have the same standards as the UK

Don't get carried away, Alfie. If you think that the true and only essence of democracy lies in following strictly the law of numbers, you're wrong.

Perhaps you can explain exactly what you mean by "populist"

The term populism is on all dictionaries, here I mean it in a derogatory way of course.

That leaving the EU was a more popular vote than staying in the EU?

Let's say a more "basic instinct" vote.
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Online caller

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To have a referendum and then to ignore the result would be a catastrophe for the UK

I really don't think so.

You really need to explain why you don't think so. The basic tenet of our democracy is adhering to the outcome of a democratic vote. Why do you think it would be acceptable to ignore this one and what do you believe the consequence of ignoring the outcome would have been?


Offline Anton

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To have a referendum and then to ignore the result would be a catastrophe for the UK

I really don't think so.

You really need to explain why you don't think so.

If we can't express catastrophic fears over Europe, than why express them over the UK? It all depends what you mean by "catastrophe", I guess.

The basic tenet of our democracy is adhering to the outcome of a democratic vote

Caller what democratic vote are you talking about? By your own admission in the "hypocrisy of the day" discussion:

As Roger has said, there was misinformation everywhere

Do you know that's enough to make it a non-democratic vote? Don't worry, I won't lecture you any further over democracy, you are the experts I know.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 07:42:28 PM by Anton »
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Online jivvy

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Quote
Don't worry, I won't lecture you any further over democracy, you are the experts I know.

What gives a you the right to make such an arrogant self opinionated statement, you continually show your dislike for the UK and all that it stands for.
One should never do wrong in return, nor mistreat any man, no matter how one has been mistreated by him.”
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Offline Anton

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What gives a you the right to make such an arrogant self opinionated statement

Apologies Jivvy, it might be because I resent as arrogant and self-opinionated some of the pro-Brexit statements here. I'll try to do better now.

you continually show your dislike for the UK and all that it stands for

That is not true. Here, I'm just trying to motivate my counter-Brexit arguments. Elsewhere, where am I showing such dislike?
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Offline Alfie

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Anton, it's OK to be against Brexit but there's no point getting nasty about it (you or EU officials). It's going to happen, as it should following the referendum. Just get used to it.
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Offline Anton

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Anton, it's OK to be against Brexit but there's no point getting nasty about it (you or EU officials). It's going to happen, as it should following the referendum. Just get used to it.

Alfie, I think we all got used to it already. It's all this bragging about "democracy" that sounds so out of tune to me now. Another one of those abstract concepts that are politically exploited and have lost any meaning in today's world. Amen
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Online caller

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In your opinion Anton.

Which really sums up what this thread has been about.