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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 22130 times)

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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #260 on: September 28, 2017, 09:24:06 PM »

Thanks for that bit of 'Sir Humphrey' Alfie.
Magical and not too far from the mark ... ?

On a lighter note, I thought this was a demanding script in the DT :-

''We joined the European Economic Community for practical reasons: we thought it would modernise our economy and help the West to defeat communism. We were wrong, and we won’t make that mistake again. It will become increasingly impossible, as the years pass and Macron and his allies get their way, for anybody to pretend that the EU is merely a “free market” rather than an embryonic state.
Once we leave, that will be it: we will never rejoin.''

Alleluah for that !

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/28/emmanuel-macrons-inspirational-eu-dream-actually-authoritarian/
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #261 on: October 04, 2017, 06:02:02 PM »

Steven Woolfe, a British MEP, delivers these withering words with a ring of truth about them. . . .

"From Verhofstadt to Juncker, to Barnier and to Tusk, the message is clear: the EU will delay, damage and deny Brexit. When President Tusk says the UK can’t have its cake and eat it, what he actually means is the EU wants its cake, our cake, the morning croissant, afternoon tea and finishing it with taking a pound of Britain’s economic flesh washed down with a glass of subsidised EU Chianti."

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/862104/Brexit-news-UK-Brussels-European-Union-Jean-Claude-Juncker-EU-Britain-video

What do you reckon Guys ? Time for the UK to implement a walk away ?
 
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caller

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #262 on: October 04, 2017, 10:09:17 PM »

What do you reckon Guys ? Time for the UK to implement a walk away ?

I think they perceive the UK as weak and maybe under May as PM it is. She needs to have more presence. She started so well.

I think we should just walk away. Merkel still has more to worry in Germany, like trying to form a Government and as for Spain, well!

Just walk out from the talks leaving a huge hole in eu finances and let them come back to us when they are serious.
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Teessider

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #263 on: October 05, 2017, 12:58:50 PM »

Yet another hapless performance by the worst pm in living memory.
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Alfie

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #264 on: October 05, 2017, 01:18:57 PM »

What do you reckon Guys ? Time for the UK to implement a walk away ?

I think it's too early to walk away but I think we should be prepared and ready to walk away come June next year. The EU has no wish to see the UK do well or to see us part as friends. They want total submission and a weak UK. Stuff 'em.
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Robert

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #265 on: October 05, 2017, 03:34:44 PM »

Hope I allowed to make some kind of remark about Brexit without being ridiculed.

There is a huge difference between the opinion/thoughts of politicians and "normal" people IMHO. Who will suffer the most from all of this? For sure not the politicians. I know I belong to the "normal" people (allthough my wife might disagree about me being normal, haha) and I love my freedom. EU was meant as one common market and we Dutch are partly to blame for this concept as we started BeNeLux (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemburg). The Dutch are called the Chinese of Europe because we like to trade and make money. Saving on import taxes helps a lot. What I and many others do not like is the interference of people like Tusk, Verhofstadt, Juncker and Dhragi in our lives. The Euro should have been implemented with floating currency rates instead of fixed ones. If a country does not do well all other countries are suffering, look at Greede, Italy, Spain and Portugal. As I am not Don Quichote fighting windmills unfortunately I have to accept what those EC loving morons decide. Like the British also citizens of all other Euro countries suffer from the loss in value of our money. Being 71 I have more or less given up on the world as everything is driven by money only nowadays. No more solidarity, no more real effort to make the world better. Instead we seem to have more wars, more conflicts etc.
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Teessider

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #266 on: October 05, 2017, 04:16:52 PM »

The EU is far from perfect. It's handling of the Greece situation was very harsh considering they were partly responsible by allowing them to join the Eurozone when their economy was not ready. The euro project works for the benefit of the Germans. They are disappointingly silent on the disgraceful behaviour of the civil police in Catalonia. However in this world of globalisation and useless world leaders (Trump, May,. Jong un, Rajoy et al) I still think Brexit is a big mistake. The majority of MP's are remainders, the referendum was deeply flawed and unnecessary.
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Anton

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #267 on: October 05, 2017, 05:54:12 PM »

They are disappointingly silent on the disgraceful behaviour of the civil police in Catalonia

What should they say about it? Police followed their orders. Referendum had been declared unconstitutional and illegal by highest Court unanimous sentence. Don't let biased media reports influence your judgement.
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Teessider

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #268 on: October 05, 2017, 06:18:17 PM »

So you think it's OK for police in riot gear to attack unarmed civilians with their hands in the air, to throw elderly people down a fight of stairs? The Spanish government with its actions have weakened their case.
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Robert

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #269 on: October 05, 2017, 06:55:34 PM »

They are disappointingly silent on the disgraceful behaviour of the civil police in Catalonia

What should they say about it? Police followed their orders. Referendum had been declared unconstitutional and illegal by highest Court unanimous sentence. Don't let biased media reports influence your judgement.

Oeps Anton, police/army just following orders? IMHO really depending who and why these orders were given. Franco ordered the attack on Guernica, remember?

Edit: my reply should not be in this topic.
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caller

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #270 on: October 05, 2017, 10:09:36 PM »

Yet another hapless performance by the worst pm in living memory.

No, that was Gordon Brown. Close to being committed.
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #271 on: October 15, 2017, 07:32:28 AM »

Robert - catching up I just noticed your thoughtful post  5/10. I don't know why you expected ridicule - your post recommended. I was a little surprised to see your view ''unfortunately I have to accept what those EC loving morons decide'' and that does show it's not just the grumpy Brits who feel like that !
In fact many people in each of the lost 27 feel the same.  ;)

Teess - easy to criticise M8 - do you fancy Mrs May's job then ? I think she's doing quite well despite the almost impossible task she faces in these days of news coverage 24/7 and with brutal comment being the civilised norm these days.

Alfie - just watched Sir Humphrey again - wonderful. Yes I agree it's too early to walk away, but we should certainly be planning to do that - how can we shake the lost 27 Leaders to take charge of their Union and bring these monsters in Brussels to heel ? It seems there is NO goodwill on the EU side who would be happy to leave the UK in political rubble in return for Junckers, ''Thanks for the war''.

From today's DT :-

''There can be little doubt that the EU is stringing out the negotiations with a view to piling pressure on the United Kingdom. The longer that discussion of the future relationship is delayed, they undoubtedly calculate, the less time the UK will have to prepare for life outside the EU and the more inclined it will be to agree to a substantial divorce settlement and a diluted Brexit - possibly with continued freedom of movement and British submission to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice.''

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/14/uk-has-displayed-conspicuous-goodwill-now-time-european-union/





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Robert

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #272 on: October 15, 2017, 10:56:25 AM »

Robert - catching up I just noticed your thoughtful post  5/10. I don't know why you expected ridicule - your post recommended. I was a little surprised to see your view ''unfortunately I have to accept what those EC loving morons decide'' and that does show it's not just the grumpy Brits who feel like that !
In fact many people in each of the lost 27 feel the same.  ;)

Teess - easy to criticise M8 - do you fancy Mrs May's job then ? I think she's doing quite well despite the almost impossible task she faces in these days of news coverage 24/7 and with brutal comment being the civilised norm these days.

Alfie - just watched Sir Humphrey again - wonderful. Yes I agree it's too early to walk away, but we should certainly be planning to do that - how can we shake the lost 27 Leaders to take charge of their Union and bring these monsters in Brussels to heel ? It seems there is NO goodwill on the EU side who would be happy to leave the UK in political rubble in return for Junckers, ''Thanks for the war''.

From today's DT :-

''There can be little doubt that the EU is stringing out the negotiations with a view to piling pressure on the United Kingdom. The longer that discussion of the future relationship is delayed, they undoubtedly calculate, the less time the UK will have to prepare for life outside the EU and the more inclined it will be to agree to a substantial divorce settlement and a diluted Brexit - possibly with continued freedom of movement and British submission to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice.''

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/14/uk-has-displayed-conspicuous-goodwill-now-time-european-union/

Hi Roger,

If you are surprised about my thoughts about EC politics you might have missed some of my comments on this subject before. IMHO there is a huge difference between the concept of having a United States of Europe versus United States of America. Has to do with mentality of different countries in Europe, their own country first. Introduction of the Euro on fixed exchange rates was the biggest mistake. Due to all the trade in Europe it is convenient to cross Europe in trucks without having to change money all the time. Most people in Europe accept the advantages of less trading rules and regulations but I have been to most countries in Europe and know that local farmers do not like being told by EC what they can do or cannot do.
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #273 on: October 17, 2017, 01:59:28 PM »

I'm with Roger Bootle in his hopes here :-

''We may be rescued by Jean-Claude Juncker and his merry men, who seem keen not to have a deal – at almost any price. As this becomes clear, it will surely swing public opinion behind the Government’s plans – whatever they are – to prepare for exit without a deal.''

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/15/no-deal-scenario-could-best-outcome-brexit-negotiations/
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #274 on: October 22, 2017, 03:12:08 PM »

Interesting article in the DT today from Janet Daley :-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/21/eu-finally-seems-have-realised-not-play-fight/

''it is almost certainly the case that the increasingly aggressive calls from assertive Brexiteers for the UK to walk away – supported by some extremely persuasive argument and evidence for the plausibility of a no-deal future – have scared the living daylights out of European leaders.''

Here's the whole script :-

''Is this hell? We appear to be locked in some horrible recurrent dream in which the same people say the same things again and again in varying tones of voice, but always with the same deadly intransigence. The “negotiations” over our exit from what was supposed to be a fraternal, cooperative, mutually beneficial association is now a hostage crisis in which the ransom cannot even be agreed, let alone met.

The two sides in the British political divide on Brexit are, ironically, in agreement that this process is utterly futile. For the irreconcilable Remain camp, this means only one thing: let’s call it off and stay in – or at least retreat to the safe harbour of a simulacrum of membership. For the tenacious Leave team, it confirms the worst expectations of malign EU intentions, so the only plausible solution is to pull the plug on the entire charade and walk away. Even if both sides are making use of this mess for their own ends, surely they are both right: this is hopeless.

Or is it? By the end of last week, much official effort seemed to be going into producing what Americans call new “optics”. The leaders of Europe’s governments – who have to worry about being re-elected and are therefore not free to give a Juncker‑like shrug over the fate of their own economies – started talking turkey about trade.

At least, they started to talk about talking about it. Not with Britain, of course, just among themselves. But we had already had hints of that: the EU27 was to begin exploring the possibilities that might – maybe, possibly – constitute an arrangement for trading with the UK after it leaves.

This will involve, one may imagine, some pretty heavy-going debate between countries like Sweden, whose main concern is selling us things and where the National Board of Trade is already engaged in drawing up a basis for trading with the UK post-Brexit, and those whose concerns are fiercely ideological, like France, which was the original architect of this metaphysical project.

At some point, they will presumably report back to the UK negotiating team with the conclusions of these internal deliberations – assuming that they are able to reach mutually acceptable conclusions. In the end, it will almost certainly be Germany (when it eventually forms a government) that will call the shots. And that may be good news for the UK (if you think that reaching some sort of agreement is good news) and for the desperately embattled Conservative government.
"Nobody has invoked Article 50 before. Everybody is stumbling in the dark"

It was Angela Merkel who was leading the upbeat chorus after the EU Council summit. She simply would not countenance the idea that Britain would leave without a deal: there was “absolutely no indication” of such a thing, she said, and then added that for British Eurosceptics to urge Theresa May to walk away was “absurd”. Contrary to reports in the UK media, progress was being made step by step. And so on. Whether you believe this or not, the fact that she said it is hugely significant.

In the great EU tradition, everybody followed Germany’s instructions. The European Council’s president, Donald Tusk, tweeted that EU leaders had given the green light to “preparations for the second phase [of negotiations]” and Jean-Claude Juncker, in his predictably back-handed way, agreed: he hated the “no deal” scenario, he said – which was an oddly personal way of putting it.

Only Emmanuel Macron (see reference to France above) seemed adamantly unhelpful, muttering about how much more work still needs to be done on the question of money. On the prospect of no deal, he was relentless: “The UK would be the first to lose in that situation.” (But not the last, he might have added.)

What is the lesson of this sudden outburst of conciliatory noise? That the people who really run the EU – the elected leaders of its member states – have got the upper hand over its unelected, unaccountable pinhead bureaucrats? Or maybe that this business was bound to get serious eventually and that reality is finally breaking through?

Either or both of these things are probably true, but it is almost certainly the case that the increasingly aggressive calls from assertive Brexiteers for the UK to walk away – supported by some extremely persuasive argument and evidence for the plausibility of a no-deal future – have scared the living daylights out of European leaders.

Mrs Merkel may claim that their calls are “absurd”, but if she is even remotely persuaded that they are under serious consideration, she – and her colleagues – will know that this isn’t a play fight any more.

At least for the moment, we must take all this nice talk at face value. The EU really, really loves us. Punishment is not what they have in mind – certainly not. Nor do they wish to make an example of us to dissuade any other malcontents who might get dangerous ideas about self-government.

Presumably even the terrible twins of Brussels, Juncker and Michel Barnier, will now be caught up in the new mood of generosity and fair play. Fine. Let’s go with that. It is precisely the attitude that Mrs May offered in her speech in Florence last month. Indeed, Mrs Merkel’s words appeared to echo Mrs May’s quite pointedly.

In that spirit, the UK negotiating team should step on to the front foot. An immediate unilateral offer of existing rights to all EU citizens living in the UK should be the first move. This would make it morally impossible for the EU not to reciprocate by matching the offer to UK citizens living in Europe.

Then they must give great attention to every word that is uttered by everybody to ensure that we always make an unimpeachable and coherent case for our position: yes, this is about defending the democratic integrity of the nation state – which is a very different thing from nationalism of the sinister sort.

Above all, we understand the difficulties. Nobody has invoked Article 50 before. Everybody is stumbling in the dark. But all our peoples deserve something better than political vanity and recrimination
.''


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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #275 on: October 24, 2017, 06:29:19 AM »

We just don't know where negotiations will end up, but for me, this was encouraging :-

''Mrs May updated Parliament on Monday on the progress of Brexit talks following the two-day European Council meeting in Brussels last week, and insisted she had “a degree of confidence” that the two sides would finally open trade talks in December.

However, she made it clear that unless a trade deal was agreed by next summer Britain would have to leave the EU on World Trade Organisation (WTO) terms and scrap the proposed two-year transition period.

Mrs May said: “The point of the implementation period is to put in place the practical changes necessary to move to the future partnership. In order to have that you need to know what the future partnership is going to be.”
''

Well done Mrs May !

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/23/theresa-may-issues-fresh-no-deal-threat-leaked-account-claims/
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 06:46:07 AM by Roger »
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #276 on: October 25, 2017, 06:55:39 AM »

DT Editorial today :-

''The EU is acting tough on Brexit once again. Britain must be prepared to walk away''  ;D

''It did not take long for the new spirit of Brexit harmony ushered in by last weekend’s Brussels summit to evaporate. Theresa May returned from that meeting buoyed by the more emollient attitude on show among the leaders of the EU in contrast to the inflexibility of the European Commission negotiators. She told MPs on Monday that she was confident the UK would negotiate a special partnership with “our friends in the European Union”.

But anyone who thought that the hard part of Brexit would be the first stage, rather than the talks to follow over new trading arrangements will have been disabused by events since. First, Mrs May was the target of a hostile briefing to the German newspapers intended to wound even if it has been disowned by the alleged sources.

In the European Parliament yesterday Donald Tusk, the council president, called for the other 27 EU nations to remain united or risk being “defeated” in negotiations. This is the language of confrontation, not attenuation. Moreover, it is not being observed. Manfred Weber, leader of the European People’s Party, the largest group in the parliament, said it would oppose any plan that gave Britain the same benefits outside the EU as it had inside.He regarded the two years from triggering Article 50 as the transition phase and would not favour an implementation period that allowed the UK preferential access to the EU market.

This difference of view needs to be sorted out within the next 12 months because the MEPs have a veto on the eventual agreement. These are straws in the wind. Even if it is not its policy, the Government is right to make preparations for no deal.
''
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Alfie

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #277 on: October 25, 2017, 09:59:20 AM »

Even if it is not its policy, the Government is right to make preparations for no deal

I agree but if the government stated publicly at this time (or before now) that they were preparing for a no-deal situation, they would be criticised harshly at home for wasting time preparing for no-deal when the government's policy is to get a good deal and most people would prefer a good deal. The government can't win really. Whatever they do, someone will criticise them for it. And the EU side has and will play politics with whatever statement the UK government makes. After T May said she wasn't preparing for a no-deal, someone in the EU (I forget who, Tusk or Barnier likely) said that they (the EU side) were preparing for such an eventuality. I'm sure if T May had said the opposite, th EU side would have said something to indicate bad spirit or the likes. No, Mrs May has to just bite the bullet and get on with it and let history eventually tell its tale, whatever that might be.
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Robert

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #278 on: October 25, 2017, 11:13:17 AM »

There is a Dutch proverb what is impossible for me to translate correctly so I tried Google and theresult was:

A wellknown Dutch proverb saying: it is better to stop half way than to persevere in an error. Maybe there is a better English proverb if so please enlighten me.

It is of course up to the British to decide if Brexit is indeed wat the majority wants .... "Sometimes" politicians are chasing their own goals  ;D ;D ;D. Just my 2 pennies thoughts about this issue. Personally I think is better to change from the inside then stand aside.
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caller

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #279 on: October 25, 2017, 11:22:33 AM »

Yes, lots of weasel words from the eu but there now seems something of a difference in opinion within the eu as to how things are going and how they should be progressing. This German MEP yesterday was very critical of Tusk and the eu's stance on the negotiations, and I suspect there are many more like him. (video of his speech is embedded in this beeb report):

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41733429

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