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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 11727 times)

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caller

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #300 on: November 20, 2017, 10:50:43 AM »

The EU is morally and financially bankrupt and there is still a fair chance the Eurozone might not survive, especially with ECB support of Italian banks coming to an end.

However, irrespective of that, the UK needs a strong Europe and it will screw everything for everyone if it fails to survive. Confidence is brittle and Merkel, however repugnant she is, is needed to provide the leadership the EU needs. Because there will be a huge vacuum and massive dissent without her. There is already much resentment amongst some member states about Germany's ascendency, but they in reality, control the purse strings. A weak German Government could well affect what she or another leader can do on the European stage and another German election will fray everyone's nerves.

But I'm with Dyson and Varoufakis, there is no point continuing with the negotiations, the EU is a crooked cartel and has no interest in anything but screwing us to the ground. Let's just walk away and see what they do.
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #301 on: November 20, 2017, 02:20:27 PM »

Enrico :-
1. May and Hammond out ? I don't think so but still 5 weeks to go.
2. UK to walk away from 'Negotiations' with the EU ? A small chance of that IMO.
3. Baht 50 to the £1. NO way NO way unfortunately.
Did you take any wagers on those Xmas predictions ? As for MH370 who knows ?

Caller - in a new Election in Germany, will the voters relent and give Merkel a larger vote ?
The anti-Immigration Parties will surely hold their position and if Merkel doesn't do better - she'll have to stand down I guess ? It looks intractable atm.
(I dread to think what Teess' conclusion would have been if Mrs May had faced the same).

I agree with you - the UK should walk away - if we bend and give the EU more £ they'll just stick at the next hurdle and then the next. The EU is not negotiating sincerely IMO.

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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #302 on: November 21, 2017, 06:47:03 AM »

Comments from Andrew Evans-Pritchard in the DT today - there are serious changes afoot in Germany - the uncertainty is not likely to help the UK reach a soft Brexit :-

''The last time Germany proved unable to form a government was under the Weimar Republic. We will not see a repeat of the Thirties this time, but the failure of coalition talks after two months of deadlock is no trivial matter either.

The country faces a constitutional crisis. There is no clear-cut legal mechanism for snap elections. A fresh vote is unlikely to resolve the impasse in any case since the fragmentation of the Bundestag may well be even greater.

Opinion polls suggest that minor parties in various states of populist or ideological revolt – above all the hard-Right Alternative fur Deutschland – will make further gains. "It is an unprecedented situation in the history of the Federal Republic," said president Frank-Walter Steinmeier. 
 
With hindsight the election in September is taking on much greater significance than widely thought at the time: it marked the end of Germany’s post-war order, the happy era of moderation and the dominance two great incumbent volksparteien.
''

The long article concludes on an interesting note :-

''There is a view that Germany is the real problem for Britain in the great showdown over Brexit since the whole structure of the single market, the euro, and the EU regulatory regime, has worked so well to its advantage. Europeanist moral rhetoric is all too often a mask for German power. The country has the greatest strategic stake in preserving the EU status quo.

“They always talk about European interests when they really mean German interests,” said Gisela Stuart, head of Change Britain and herself Bavarian-born.

It was Germany and France that took the toughest line before the last EU summit in October, overruling Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier when he called for compromise.  “The commission is more technically pragmatic and in an odd way it may be easier to reach a deal if left to them,” she said.

Stranger things have happened
.''

Interesting times methinks. Happy to paste the whole thing if anyone wants. Nice day all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/11/20/germany-pays-political-price-leaving-poor-behind/

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caller

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #303 on: November 21, 2017, 10:57:40 AM »

I read that article with interest as well, although I have grown a bit wary of AEP's views, albeit he is always an enjoyable read.

I think a lot of pressure will now be placed on the FDP to return to the negotiating table, it will be interesting to see if they succumb and what, if any concessions they will get if they do?

The obnoxious EU savant Schulz of the SDP has now twice said no to continuing with the 'grand coalition', but again, could pressure + concessions mean he will do an about face for 'the good of the country'? His own personal views and those of his party re: greater eu integration seem most out of sync with the German public - how will they fare if another election is held?

Either way, all scenarios will leave Merkel and her party weaker. Would any party dare to suggest they can do a deal, but not with Merkel at the helm? Will Merkels own party now decide she is too toxic to remain party leader - I personally doubt that one.

Will the right wing AfD actually increase their vote in another election, or have they already had their day? I suspect the latter.

Will the German people just provide a repeat of the current results and what happens then? Or will they vote more tactically next time to break the impasse? I suspect they will.
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Alfie

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #304 on: November 21, 2017, 10:41:07 PM »

We will now have a short interval for a bit of Brexit frivolity.

Theresa May and the Holy Grail. :)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luTHYeuFayI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luTHYeuFayI</a>
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #305 on: November 22, 2017, 03:43:27 PM »

Thanks Alfie - that was great !  ;D Had a good laugh.
Now back to work :-

From Gisela Stuart in the DT:-

The collapse of Angela Merkel's coalition shows her dream of a united Europe is falling apart

''A new sensation is coursing through the German body politic: panic. It has been brewing since September’s dramatic election result, which saw Chancellor Angela Merkel’s CDU party much diminished, and the Right-wing Alternative fur Deutschland (AfD) capture 94 parliamentary seats. Naturally, Chancellor Merkel did what she always does when things get tough – reassure her people “das schaffen wir” – we can do this.

Not this time. Her attempts to form a coalition have unexpectedly collapsed and Germany is in turmoil. I have no doubt the Federal Republic will find a short-term solution. It has a functioning government and while this is inconvenient for Brexit talks, it’s all manageable. But it does raise wider issues about consensus, democratic legitimacy and the future of the EU. We are talking tectonic plates here, not just local difficulties.

Before we had a single currency it was perfectly possible to talk about a two-speed Europe, but there has never been a currency union without a political union. With its dream of creating a supranational identity, replacing ideology with a bureaucratic promise of a better tomorrow and becoming a significant global player, the EU has over-stretched itself.
 
Like it or not, to have a functioning single currency you need some basic things such as a single minister of economy, the ability to transfer debts and enforcement mechanisms. Not that the superstate is simply economic.

Last week, 23 EU members signed a defence pact to increase military cooperation. Meanwhile, President Emmanuel Macron sketches out his plans for a refounding of the European project, Jean-Claude Juncker delivers aspirational speeches, and there are suggestions that the European Parliament seats vacated by departing British MEPs be given to members elected from a pan-European list.

Politicians may have stopped talking about a United States of Europe, but all their actions point to one. There is just one problem: the voters aren’t with them – not even, as the failure to form a government has shown, in Germany. And in a democracy, that is a fatal flaw. The failure of the German coalition negotiations reflects the deeper fracture of democratic consent apparent across the EU.

Every European election I’ve ever been involved in has been decided on national issues fought by national political parties. We have no pan-European political parties and no European demos. The European constitution was rejected by voters first in France and then in the Netherlands.

The UK was promised a referendum by all three political parties in 2005, only for the promise to be ditched after the rehashed constitution emerged as the Lisbon Treaty. Having learnt the lesson that asking the people is a dangerous thing, France, the Netherlands and the UK passed the treaty by parliamentary procedures. The rise of Eurosceptic parties should come as no surprise.

What loyalty do the people and governments of the EU27 have to Brussels’ fetish superstate project? Poland and Hungary may hope to profit from EU membership, but they show no great eagerness to comply with rules and obligations. And while German politicians are reluctant to talk about “German interests”, in Germany you see border controls when coming from Austria.

Nor is there appetite for tax increases to make up for the funds lost when the EU’s second largest net contributor – Britain – leaves. Talk of transfer payments to Greece or any other euro country that may run into trouble is a complete no no. Indeed, objections to debt mutualisation were one of the reasons German coalition talks failed.

The reality is that Germany, like other European nations, still puts her own interests above EU interests, because democracies require consent. If eurozone countries want a superstate they must spell out what that means – fiscal transfers and all – to their voters. And if the voters say no, act on that.

Currently EU members like to fudge things, and if voters disagree they are tempted to “dissolve the people and elect another one”, as Bertolt Brecht said. Heeding people’s wishes is a far better way forward, and for the EU that may mean shelving its grandiose superstate dream and accepting the reality of doing less. For if Angela Merkel can’t sell the dream, who can?
''

Interesting times . . .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/21/collapse-angela-merkels-coalition-shows-dream-united-europe/


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KiwiCanadian

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Re: Brexit. Brexit made simple..........
« Reply #306 on: November 22, 2017, 06:32:33 PM »

Subject: Brexit made simple..........

Dave Davis is at the golf club returning his locker key when Mr Barnier, the membership secretary sees him.
"Hello Mr Davis", says Mr Barnier. "I'm sorry to hear you are no longer renewing your club membership, if you would like to come to my office we can settle your account".
"I have settled my bar bill" says Mr Davis.
"Ah yes Mr Davis", says Mr Barnier, "but there are other matters that need settlement"
 
In Mr Barnier’s office –
 
Mr Davis explains that he has settled his bar bill so wonders what else he can possibly owe the Golf Club?
"Well Mr Davis" begins Mr Barnier, "you did agree to buy one of our Club Jackets".
"Yes" agrees Mr Davis "I did agree to buy a jacket but I haven't received it yet". "As soon as you supply the jacket I will send you a cheque for the full amount".
"That will not be possible" explains Mr Barnier. "As you are no longer a club member you will not be entitled to buy one of our jackets"!
"But you still want me to pay for it" exclaims Mr Davis.
"Yes" says Mr Barnier, "That will be £500 for the jacket.
 
"There is also your bar bill".
"But I've already settled my bar bill" says Mr Davis. "Yes" says Mr Barnier, "but as you can appreciate, we need to place our orders from the Brewery in advance to ensure our bar is properly stocked".. "You regularly used to spend at least £50 a week in the bar so we have placed orders with the brewery accordingly for the coming year". "You therefore owe us £2600 for the year".
"Will you still allow me to have these drinks?" asks Mr Davis. "No of course not Mr Davis". "You are no longer a club member!" says Mr Barnier.
 
"Next is your restaurant bill" continues Mr Barnier. "In the same manner we have to make arrangements in advance with our catering suppliers". "Your average restaurant bill was in the order of £300 a month, so we'll require payment of £3600 for the next year". "I don't suppose you'll be letting me have these meals either" asks Mr Davis. "No, of course not" says an irritated Mr Barnier, "you are no longer a club member!"
 
"Then of course" Mr Barnier continues, "there are repairs to the clubhouse roof".
"Clubhouse roof" exclaims Mr Davis, "What's that got to do with me?"
"Well it still needs to be repaired and the builders are coming in next week", your share of the bill is £2000".
"I see" says Mr Davis, "anything else?".

"Now you mention it" says Mr Barnier, "there is Fred the Barman's pension". "We would like you to pay £5 a week towards Fred's pension when he retires next month". "He's not well you know so I doubt we'll need to ask you for payment for longer than about five years, so £1300 should do it".
 
"This brings your total bill to £10,000" says Mr Barnier.
 
"Let me get this straight" says Mr Davis, "you want me to pay £500 for a jacket you won't let me have, £2600 for beverages you won't let me drink and £3600 for food you won't let me eat, all under a roof I won't be allowed under and not served by a bloke who's going to retire next month!"
 
"Yes, it's all perfectly clear and quite reasonable" says Mr Barnier.
 
"P--s off!" says Mr Davis

Now we understand what Brexit is all about!!!!!
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jivvy

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #307 on: November 22, 2017, 07:10:21 PM »


Quote
Subject: Brexit made simple

Great explanation  ;D ;D ;D
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Robert

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #308 on: November 22, 2017, 08:32:41 PM »

IMHO little bit too simple but think pro-Brexit people do not agree. If I may another example: suppose 28 persons live in the same building and have all agreed to fix the roof. Order has been done and work will start next year but one of the tenants decides to pull out so the total costs have to be paid for by 27. For the EU plans are made for years ahead so in case of one of the countries pulls out this would mean financial consequences for the remaining countries. I think a good accountant should be able to find out what UK does not receive in the years to come and for what amount they signed up being a member. Maybe UK would even get money back instead of paying! It cannot be a one side calculation only, neither from the UK and neither from the EU. Look for the breakeven point somewhere.

Furthermore I would like to simplify the too much money costing Euro Parlement. Moving between Brussels and Strassbourg is ridiculous. I have said it before that I am not a great fan of the EU in its present form. Working together on good trade deals (like buying army/navy/airforce equipment together) goes far enough for me. Cannot understand why some EU politicians think a United States of Europe will happen as too many nationalists in all countries concerned are against.

Robert (from The Netherlands)
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #309 on: December 02, 2017, 06:14:49 AM »

I saw this at the end of a DX article today - ''Chris Grayling also threw his support behind coughing up billions to Brussels, calling it the “price” of “trading freely” with the 27-member superstate.''

BUT, as we import E60 billion more FROM the EU than we export to them
                                                                      - shouldn't the EU be paying US ?

There's funny Tube on this link if you can open it . . .
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/887038/Brexit-news-UK-European-Union-countries-BBC-EU-news-Michel-Barnier-Theresa-May
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #310 on: December 05, 2017, 09:33:17 AM »

I've just been listening to 'The World Tonight' - the issue of the N.Ireland border looks to be intractable. 100%.

The D.U.P. in N. Ireland say they will accept NO 'regulatory divergencies'.   ::)
The Irish Government INSIST on having 'regulatory divergencies'.   ???

The Scots, Welsh and London lobbies want the same 'regulatory divergence' as N. Ireland, if there should transpire to be any.   :o

If anyone thinks this is easy, please get on a plane and tell Theresa May the answer !

This difficulty is to be followed by :-

ECJ ruling over UK Courts ? . . this might have been accepted for a 'transitional' 2 years for the sake of getting a deal, but thereafter - NO. 100%.

Trade deals. We import E60 billion more FROM the EU than we export to them so you think it would be easy. But it won't. Each one of the lost 27 will try to impose restrictions or veto any format that might affect them when a 'soon to be free UK' starts to make future trade deals outside the EU.

*          *          *

How does this turn out ?

Just MHO but a brave effort from the tireless and competent Theresa May will hit the rocks and she will step down. The Tory Party don't really accept the proposed £ 'settlement' and the ECJ red line is as intractable as the N.Ireland border issue. Jacob Rees-Mogg becomes P.M. We get hard brexit and alleluah for that !

Or the Government falls and we get an early General Election. The Tories romp home !

The EU have so many problems of their own, they have to 'screw' the UK to survive.
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caller

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #311 on: December 05, 2017, 11:01:33 AM »

May was a fool if she ever thought she could get away with what was being proposed. Not only the DUP would object, but most of her cabinet.

She needs to wake up, smell the roses and stop seeking to appease.

Let the eu come to us with their solution rather than us seeking compromise all the time. We and she has to go on the front foot and she appears to have learnt nothing from the experiences of others who have tried to negotiate with this undemocratic, almost criminal cartel of a behemoth!

She should stay as pm but pass over the mantel of leading the negotiations to someone else, either Davis or Johnson. We need to stop being 'terribly British' about this, that's what's going to be needed after Brexit, so let's start now.

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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #312 on: December 05, 2017, 11:40:02 AM »

Well said Caller.

I am concerned - the UK is trying so hard to negotiate with the 'behemoth' as you put it so aptly, that so much time and political energy has been consumed already. Yet there is NO real chance of 'negotiating' an Exit in a form beneficial to us.

Time to get out - being firm but as friendly as possible. Time to re-energise and sort out the future, unencumbered by the EU monster !

Yes I'm sitting on the fence really.  ;) GLA,

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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #313 on: December 05, 2017, 12:57:56 PM »


Right to the point - a cartoon from Matt on the DT front page right here :-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/  ;D

And an interesting review -  ''Theresa May's smoke and mirrors Brexit gambit didn't even last an afternoon - it's not difficult to see why''.  Peter Foster Europe Editor

''After 18 months of phoney war - of talking, positioning and negotiating behind the scenes - the rickety craft of Theresa May’s Brexit strategy briefly took flight yesterday, and then promptly nose-dived back to earth. Within hours of Ireland’s state broadcaster reporting that Mrs May had agreed that the UK would ensure “continued regulatory alignment” between Northern Ireland and the EU, political gravity had taken over. If the game of leaking the compromise was to railroad Mrs May into signing off on the deal at her lunch with Jean-Claude Juncker, it backfired spectacularly, exposing this most carefully worded of texts to more scrutiny that it could bear.
 
Wrapped up in the language was a subtle compromise that officials had worked on for the best part of a month, and tried to be all things, to all parties. The UK had not been forced to become a rule-taker by agreeing to Ireland’s initial demand for “no regulatory divergence”, instead it was electing to use new-found freedoms after Brexit to maintain convergence.

To Dublin the compromise gave clear reassurance that Northern Ireland would not diverge, obviating the need for a return to a hard border, while simultaneously giving Arlene Foster’s Democratic Unionists a promise that the “alignment” would only be in the sectors that were relevant to the Good Friday Agreement. It was at this moment that Brexit’s immutable logic took over, and inexorably over the course of the next few hours began to unravel the deal.

Arlene Foster was emphatic that Northern Ireland must not be treated differently from any other part of the United Kingdom. The North, she said, could not become a regulatory exclave of the Republic, or the EU itself. But how then to square Mrs Foster’s demand for equality, with the idea that Northern Ireland was apparently being granted a soft Brexit that seemed to it part of the EU’s single market and customs union in all but name?

Either Northern Ireland was being treated differently - which would imply an east-west border to monitor mainland Britain’s divergent trade policy after Brexit - or, contrary to everything we have been told by Mrs May, the UK was not diverging at all? It could not be both.

In trying to placate the DUP, Downing Street signalled that Mrs May was signing up to “regulatory alignment” for the whole of the UK but only in those areas that impacted the Irish border question - principally agriculture and electricity. But there lies the rub. If that is the case - and there are some 140 areas that have reportedly been identified as crucial north-south cooperation in Ireland - how free, really, would the UK be to diverge with Liam Fox’s much-vaunted independent trade policy?

EU officials are privately very clear that the ‘fudge’ on Ireland leaves little room for manoeuvre. The level of regulatory convergence required to avoid a hard border - and the east-west border that implies - is inescapable. So either Mrs May was signing up the UK to vast swathes of convergence with the EU - something Boris Johnson and free-trading Brexiteers have explicitly ruled out - or she was selling her DUP partners down the river with false promises that they would be treated equally.

Clearly Mrs May had hoped that the reality of these conflicting positions could survive unnoticed at least until the EU had granted ‘sufficient progress’ at the European Council in 10 days time, and she could claim a pre-Christmas victory at the end of a disastrous year. In the event, her gambit did not survive the afternoon. Such are the political horizons of a prime minister whose cabinet has not even held a substantive discussion on the shape of the UK’s future relationship with the EU. On today’s showing it is not difficult to see why.
''

History unfolding and all good fun to watch. ATB
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caller

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #314 on: December 05, 2017, 07:58:51 PM »

There is no negotiating with this bunch of liars and cheats.

Ireland must have forgotten how they were sacrificed to spare the Eurozone by the cartel to protect French and German banks who had over extended in America? That's the Europe they are now supporting. 

They must have forgotten or indeed hated the fact that the Queens shilling was used to bail them out, at far more an advantageous rate than the technocrats of Europe were prepared to offer. Why was that?

You know, that band of brothers that all the eurozone nations are, supporting one another and all that, apart from the fact the then German finance minister and his henchmen were running the show and wanted to make an example of those pesky Countries that had got it all wrong, aided and abetted by German banks throwing money around like confetti, that were thus bailed out by Irish taxpayers.

Bernie Ahern has it right. The trade between the north and south of Ireland is miniscule, tiny, it hardly makes a dent in the economy, so just ignore it, pretend it isn't there and all is well. That's the Irish way and it has served them well up till now. Not any longer it seems.
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #315 on: December 07, 2017, 09:38:52 AM »

As the UK faces 'political exhaustion' in pursuance of Brexit - I have had thoughts that will amuse Teess and maybe others. I think Theresa May should step down - mainly because a change of direction is needed and not because she is 'weak' or 'incompetent'. The task is just too great and it will take the enrgy of more than one Leader IMO. TM is worn out and on Monday, after the DUP glitch, she looked very wobbly.

As Caller says, ''There is no negotiating with this bunch of liars and cheats.''

In the DT today in an article headlined, ''Britain almost has to fight its way out of the EU colonial 'empire', A Evans Pritchard quotes a Belgian historian, ''“Life in Europe in 2017 is resembling more and more what it was like under colonial administration. We are subjected to an invisible administration that shapes our destiny down to the tiniest details. Should we really be surprised that it is leading to revolts,” said Mr Van Reybrouck''. And, ''The late colonial regimes had "councils of the people" just as there is a European Parliament today, but substantive power resided in the imperial executive, acting “far away from us, without us, on our behalf”, like Brussels today.''

AEP's own comments :-

''I don’t wish to reopen the Referendum chapter, but we risk getting bogged down in Brexit minutiae and forgetting why we are leaving. It is not a whimsical choice. The decision was forced upon us because the EU began to assert "totalitarian" reach, using Hannah Arendt’s term advisedly to mean a systematic assault on prior traditions and institutions in order to create an entirely new order.''

''We do not wish to live under a higher supranational regime, run by a European Council that Britons do not elect directly and can never remove – even when it persists in error – and guided by a Commission priesthood with quasi-executive powers. Nor do we want to live under an EU supreme court that acquired sweeping supremacy under the Lisbon Treaty, with no right of appeal.''

''We are now at an impasse: a soft Brexit on tolerable terms is no longer available; Canada Plus is a chimera; and there is no majority in Parliament for a decisive clean break.

How would Sukarno have handled this situation, or Nehru, Nasser, and Nkrumah, one wonders? They certainly would not a have lost a moment’s sleep over a point or two of GDP. Their sole objective was to achieve independence, and they succeeded by displaying the stronger will.''

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/12/06/britain-almost-has-fight-way-eu-colonial-empire/

If anyone wants me to post the whole script just ask.
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Alfie

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #316 on: December 08, 2017, 09:03:41 PM »

"Sufficient progress" has been made and the UK and the EU have come to some sort of agreement that keeps everyone happy - even the DUP and the Irish. So, next step is to try to negotiate a trade deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/08/sufficient-progress-in-brexit-talks-announced-after-mays-dash-to-brussels

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/08/main-points-of-agreement-uk-eu-brexit-deal
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #317 on: December 11, 2017, 06:15:10 AM »

Roger Bootle in the DT on Mrs May and Brexit :-

''Once it became clear that the EU was going to play hardball, she should have immediately embarked on a no-deal strategy.''

Time for Mrs May to move on ?
''If you are in any doubt about how badly the Government has handled these negotiations, you should note that last week we heard that Jean-Claude Juncker was keen for Mrs May to get some sort of agreement in order to prevent the fall of her Government. He feared that she could be replaced by a eurosceptic prime minister, prepared to leave the EU without a deal. Hey presto, there’s an agreement''.

Here's a nightmare scenario :-
''We could end up with something close to membership of the customs union and the single market but without a voice in EU decision-making, while still being subject to the European Court of Justice in important matter.''

Alfie to say 'sufficient progress' is no more than a 'sop to the fudge', (if you see what I mean). Interesting times indeed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/12/10/next-phase-brexit-talks-goes-badly-must-walk-away-without-deal/
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #318 on: December 19, 2017, 11:57:27 AM »

The pressure Group, 'Leave means Leave' includes 50 Tory MP's and MEP's:-

''Leave Means Leave has created a “litmus test” to judge Brexit which is that the UK “is in a position when it leaves the EU on March 29th 2019 to deregulate (including the removal of external tariffs), manage migration, capitalise on global free trade opportunities, abolish the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) and repatriate fisheries, end the net £11billion a year paid to the EU, set our own tax regime and have a more competitive currency.”''

IMO these points are ours to take, not theirs to give.

Alfie was right - ''There is no negotiating with this bunch of liars and cheats.''

The UK will become politically exhausted - there will be no good will on the other side. 

Roger Bootle in the DT - ''Once it became clear that the EU was going to play hardball, she should have immediately embarked on a no-deal strategy.''

It should be an interesting few months to come . . .
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Robert

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #319 on: December 19, 2017, 12:27:23 PM »


Alfie was right - ''There is no negotiating with this bunch of liars and cheats.''



So British politicians are the same as white rabbits I have to presume now? Come on and come back into the real world please  ;D ;D ;D ;D.
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