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Alfie · 801 · 25766

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Online jivvy

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How do they go about it in your home country, Anton? How are people 'properly' educated there before a referendum?

They are sent to a special location and re-educated to think like Anton ( heaven fordid )
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Online Roger

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Anton, this has been an interesting discussion but I wonder if Alfie and Caller will appreciate being characterised as ''people with a minimum of education'' - I presume you mean, ''at least'' a minimum level of education.

Similarly, ''talking to my low-educated Italian friends at the coffee shop'' is a bit lofty.

IMO Lord Lamont gently hits the spot with those comments. Nice one !

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Offline Anton

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I have just started reading a book just published in the UK called. 'National Populism: The revolt against liberal democracy'.

Careful Caller, it seems the book you are reading may not be totally objective in its general judgement of those movements, in spite of having been written by academics. At least according to this lucid review posted 4 days ago on Amazon.co.uk (see here). I'm copying the full text below as Brexit is mentioned twice - I highlight in bold. And before you attack me for picking out the only 2-star review for that book, let me explain that it is my common habit, when reading other readers' reviews, to always start from the most critical ones, as by experience I learnt that they are often also the most objective ones, especially when well detailed like this one.


Get you head in a few books instead of youtube.

Thank you for the advice Caller. I'll try to add even more titles to the dozens of books I'm reading every year.

My advice to you, if I may (I know you can be very touchy), is to read less analytic works and more works of synthesis, in particular historical synthesis. You may learn that history repeats itself, or "there's nothing new under the sun" as they say, because human nature can't be changed. And if you want to learn more about human nature, nothing better than great classic novelists and poets. One Oscar Wilde will teach more about human nature than all of your academics taken in a bundle.





Good, though unoriginal, on the failings of liberal democracy but airbrushes national populism.


I don’t normally review books on Amazon, but felt misled by the description and reviews of this one and wanted to introduce a bit of balance.

In particular, the blurb claims that this book demolishes the claim that nationalist populist (NP) movements have leaders with fascistic tendencies and exhibit anti-democratic politics; the book itself is virtually silent on these subjects. It draws a distinction between the ideological positions of NP and fascist movements and explores (somewhat repetitively) how the failures of liberal democracy have given rise to the former (which it describes as the supply side), but sidesteps the more uncomfortable demand side question of how political entrepreneurs have built up such movements, let alone seek to identify whether real-life examples are a blend of fascism and NP. The authors seem to unaware of the existence of Alt-Right actors such as Steve Bannon and Alex Jones, let alone discuss where they fit in their classification.

One can indeed make the argument that restrictions on immigration are not in themselves racist or xenophonic. However, the degree of opprobrium expressed by NP supporters and leaders for well-assimilated non-white individuals who achieve prominence such as Barack Obama or Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, and the oft-repeated fact that George Soros is Jewish and Emanuel Macron once worked for Rotschilds, together with Trump’s frequent racist outburst, suggests that racism remains an inherent part of their make-up. This is not commented upon.

Another topic which is not explored is the degree to which NP movements seek to undermine liberal democracy by attacking, and where possible dismantling, pluralistic structures in the societies that they control, even if the existence of such structures has enabled their rise. This can be seen in purges of the judiciary and media companies in Hungary and Poland, in the Brexiteer insistence that a parliamentary vote, let alone a second referendum, in the light of the negotiated exit term for the UK from the EU is a betrayal by elites of the peoples’ will, and in Trump’s vehement attacks on well-established newspapers, the Department of Justice and FBI. Many in the NP world seem to believe that anyone who does not share the NP ideology is not a true patriot, and hence does not merit inclusion in a democratic society – the authors are silent on this.

What is perhaps most troubling to liberals is the extent to which members of NP movements identify so strongly with the cause that they suspend any critical faculties and blindly swallow their leaders’ wildest claims. As I write this, Cesar Sayoc has just been charged with mailing explosive devices to leading Trump critics. Despite the ample evidence that Mr Sayoc, who may well be deranged, has been an active Trump supporter, many Republicans are claiming that this is a false-flag job by Democrats, and Trump himself is attacking the liberal media for introducing a hostile climate. PiS members in Poland largely believe a highly implausible conspiracy theories explaining the 2010 Smolensk plane crash which has been weaponised by their leadership. I would contrast this with a more questioning attitude on the liberal side, e.g. as in the abandonment of Blair following his decision to support the Iraq war. I don’t think that it is possible to understand the NP world without understanding this phenomenon.

An important component of the NP mindset is the status of women. Many NP movements are socially conservative, and seek to restrict the right to abortion, although some NP parties in Western Europe claim to support female emancipation against Islam (in the same way that many French NP mayors seek to ban halal slaughter for reasons of animal welfare but strongly support hunting). Some of the relative economic deprivation suffered by the “left behind” can be linked to the growth in female education and employment and the equalization of pay. Trump’s blatant misogyny either does not trouble or positively appeals to his core audience, and Hillary Clinton’s gender is considered by many to have alienated voters. I would have liked to read the authors' considered views on this.

I would have also welcomed more discussion of the interaction between economically libertarian elites who often have an incubatory or leadership role in NP movements and the more protectionist and redistributionist instincts of many of their members. Although the authors do briefly touch on Trump’s tax cuts, they do not discuss the complex issues involved in the repeal of Obamacare or explore how the Brexiteer preference for no trade agreement with the EU will impact the manufacturing jobs of many grassroots supporters.

All in all, this is not the book that I was expecting to read and found little new or interesting in it.
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Offline Anton

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A rhetorical address clearly drafted with the aim of causing sensation among easy influenced people, in this case to fuel anti-EU feelings among them. If it managed to influence people with a minimum of education, as I suppose are Caller and Alfie in this forum, you can imagine the effect on all of the "great unwashed", to use your term. I can touch it by hand almost everyday when talking to my low-educated Italian friends at the coffee shop (none of them finished secondary school): 75 to 80% of their political believes are based on false information, incomplete information, hearsay... When tackling each specific points one by one and trying to dig a little more into it, with the help of Internet if needed, then starts the choir of the "Oooh!" and the "Aaah!" and the "I didn't know!".

Would you recommend that poorly educated people are not allowed to vote in a referendum? Or elections generally?

Why try to change the subject Alfie? Did I touch a sore point again?
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Online dam12641

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Come on Anton. The point of this forum is that like minded people can discuss and enjoy the discussions.
I think you sometimes forget that.

For the record and in the light of previous comments in this thread, I feel that I need to justify my right to comment.

You have previously questioned the intellect of other posters, so: I have an IQ of 140, attended the best school in the UK, graduate chemist, IT consultant, company director and self made millionaire, retired at 49. Ok?

Meanwhile............

I believe you are Belgian.
If so, what gives you the right to comment on any aspect of Nationalism because as a Belgian you can surely have no comprehension of it.

An unfair argument? Maybe. But..........

And please don't interpret this post as 'combative'. I enjoy your posts in the main but sometimes I think you get carried away.


Offline Alfie

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A rhetorical address clearly drafted with the aim of causing sensation among easy influenced people, in this case to fuel anti-EU feelings among them. If it managed to influence people with a minimum of education, as I suppose are Caller and Alfie in this forum, you can imagine the effect on all of the "great unwashed", to use your term. I can touch it by hand almost everyday when talking to my low-educated Italian friends at the coffee shop (none of them finished secondary school): 75 to 80% of their political believes are based on false information, incomplete information, hearsay... When tackling each specific points one by one and trying to dig a little more into it, with the help of Internet if needed, then starts the choir of the "Oooh!" and the "Aaah!" and the "I didn't know!".
Would you recommend that poorly educated people are not allowed to vote in a referendum? Or elections generally?

Why try to change the subject Alfie? Did I touch a sore point again?

No sore point from me, Anton. I'm not the one getting worked up about the UK leaving the EU.

Change the subject? Isn't your home country in the EU? Anton from Belgium

And it was you who introduced the topic of education and your "low-educated Italian friends" (off topic).

But if your home country is not Belgium or in the EU (I know Anton and just think he is NOT from Belgium / Anton is not from Belgium IMHO) and you don't want to discuss education or referendums or voting when you mention them in your posts, it seems to me you are just trolling. 
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Online caller

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'National Populism: The revolt against liberal democracy'. The clue is in the title. Not a revolt against democracy, but a revolt against Liberal Democracy.

It seems the revolt against Liberal Democracy has a long way to go in the UK. Perhaps the UK government should take inspiration from the EU on certain subjects.

Very droll Anton. I have mentioned this before, that in the UK, there hasn't really ever been a 'populist' party that has lasted the pace. What UKIP or more specifically, Farage, has achieved, has been spectacular in respect of Europe, but on the domestic scene, a complete wash-out (but that could well change if Brexit ends up as a damp squib).

I can tell you why as well - it's all about a first past the post electoral system, rather than PR. Maybe if the other Countries changed their political system, that would, on the surface at least, eradicate the problem. Poor old Sweden still can't form a Govt. two months after their election! Maybe someone needs to swallow their pride and speak to the Swedish Democrats?

Anton, do you know something (anything)? I usually like to read a book with an open-mind, so do so without reading the opinions of others beforehand. Once I knew the subject matter, it was like a magnet to me in any case. It's my background I think, growing up where and when I did, witnessing the changes over the years, dealing directly with some of them and importantly, through working in both Central & Local Government, being only too aware of, how can I put this - let's call it the glossing over of reality.

Roger, thanks for the support over Anton's slurs, but it's not needed, I only skim read what he has to say and I actually missed what you highlighted - lol! And I know I am far from being the cleverest person in any case, yet alone an intellect (God forbid)! I was lucky, in that I am of one of the last generations where growing up on a council estate without a uni education, wasn't such a barrier to reach a certain level, before hitting the proverbial glass ceiling (none of my friends went to university - it wasn't such a big deal back in the day and hardly something I was expected to do. Art college maybe, but I was 'encouraged' to leave school by my housemaster in any case). Each successive generation after mine has witnessed fewer and fewer 'moving on', for want of a better word.

So you're a classicist then, Anton? Good for you. I'm afraid I never really got past Kipling - does he count (his house in Burwash is very nice)? I jest, so no need to answer! History is one of my favourite subjects, I even took my O level a year early and even with any revision left to the night before, I passed. All thanks to Dylan and Baez, I believe? As I could only answer 4 of the 5 questions, but they always had a sort of 'get out of jail' bit at the end, where you could make short responses to I believe, three subjects from a selection they offered. Two were okay, but then there was a question about the relevance of Dylan and Baez, which was my 'clutching at straws' moment and I can only assume whoever was marking me, was a fan?

The thing is Anton, I have always been more of a contemporary sort of person, whether in history (my O level was for modern history from 1919) or art. Which is why my little collection has only two pieces with any sort of vintage, both from 1960 (St. Ives school, to save you asking). Anything prior to about 1840 isn't really my thing. Same with books I'm afraid. If I tell you my favourite author is Huraki Murakami, it might help, although I have no doubt he is writing future classics. Here's a line that seems relevant to you and I:

Body cells replace themselves every month. Even at this very moment. Most everything you think you know about me is nothing more than memories. (A Wild Sheep Chase)

« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 10:26:48 PM by caller »


Offline Anton

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A rhetorical address clearly drafted with the aim of causing sensation among easy influenced people, in this case to fuel anti-EU feelings among them. If it managed to influence people with a minimum of education, as I suppose are Caller and Alfie in this forum, you can imagine the effect on all of the "great unwashed", to use your term. I can touch it by hand almost everyday when talking to my low-educated Italian friends at the coffee shop (none of them finished secondary school): 75 to 80% of their political believes are based on false information, incomplete information, hearsay... When tackling each specific points one by one and trying to dig a little more into it, with the help of Internet if needed, then starts the choir of the "Oooh!" and the "Aaah!" and the "I didn't know!".
Would you recommend that poorly educated people are not allowed to vote in a referendum? Or elections generally?

Why try to change the subject Alfie? Did I touch a sore point again?

Change the subject? Isn't your home country in the EU? Anton from Belgium

And it was you who introduced the topic of education and your "low-educated Italian friends" (off topic).

Alfie, you reacted to my last comments on Lord Lamont's political address with this and other sarcastic lines: Would you recommend that poorly educated people are not allowed to vote in a referendum? Or elections generally?

However:

- I didn't make any hint whatsoever on who should or shouldn't have the right to vote in a referendum or elections
- There was no allusion whatsoever from my side, suggesting to deprive the less educated or anybody else from their political rights

So, who tried to change the subject by shifting the discussion towards the question of universal suffrage? Definitely not me! If you want to discuss that, I suggest you open another topic.

All I did was:

- Expose some facts about Lord Lamont's political address (I then had to remove that part for personal reasons, sorry about that, I can post again on request).
- Expose some other facts to explain why that kind of rhetoric, in general, works well (the part quoted above)

Did you feel offended because I supposed you have "a minimum of education"? I meant it as compliment, I thought it was clear in the context. I didn't mean to compare you to my friends who didn't finish secondary schools.


But if your home country is not Belgium or in the EU (I know Anton and just think he is NOT from Belgium / Anton is not from Belgium IMHO) and you don't want to discuss education or referendums or voting when you mention them in your posts

I'm ready to discuss all of those topics as long as related to the subject matter here: Brexit. And how does it matter where I come from?!


it seems to me you are just trolling

If you think I'm trolling, up to you, I'm not asking for yours or anybody else's attention.
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Offline Anton

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Anton, do you know something (anything)? I usually like to read a book with an open-mind, so do so without reading the opinions of others beforehand.

How lucky you are Caller. To think that all other people, with Anton in the forefront, like reading books with a closed mind only!  ::)

Oh, but I will keep trying harder and harder until one day I will manage to reach your level Caller, I feel it, I know I can!  :P

A Chinese proverb you might like, if you never heard it before: Open a book. The book will open you.
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Offline Anton

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Come on Anton. The point of this forum is that like minded people can discuss and enjoy the discussions.
I think you sometimes forget that.

You have previously questioned the intellect of other posters

For example where? The first and the second allegation, please. So I can reply or apologise if it is the case.


self made millionaire, retired at 49

Congratulations, and I hope you didn't forget to pay the taxes  :D ;D


I believe you are Belgian.
If so, what gives you the right to comment on any aspect of Nationalism because as a Belgian you can surely have no comprehension of it.

Excuse me but what do you mean by "Nationalism" exactly here? Because I don't think that's what I'm doing (the part in bold). What I'm doing is trying to dim Caller's and other members' excessive enthusiasm on movements they seem to perceive as today's version of Robin Hood and his Merry Men.


I enjoy your posts in the main but sometimes I think you get carried away.

Thank you... Well I think I'm in good company here in that case (part in bold). Also here, it would be appreciated to know where, for example.
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Offline Anton

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'National Populism: The revolt against liberal democracy'. The clue is in the title. Not a revolt against democracy, but a revolt against Liberal Democracy.

It seems the revolt against Liberal Democracy has a long way to go in the UK. Perhaps the UK government should take inspiration from the EU on certain subjects.

Very droll Anton.

Excuse me but why did you remove Teessider's line from your quoting? Maybe it wasn't as droll with that line in it, but it did make much better sense   :)





The complete reply no. 438:


'National Populism: The revolt against liberal democracy'. The clue is in the title. Not a revolt against democracy, but a revolt against Liberal Democracy.

Hammonds tax cuts for the richest 10% budget on Monday

It seems the revolt against Liberal Democracy has a long way to go in the UK. Perhaps the UK government should take inspiration from the EU on certain subjects.
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Offline Alfie

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Alfie, you reacted to my last comments on Lord Lamont's political address with this and other sarcastic lines: Would you recommend that poorly educated people are not allowed to vote in a referendum? Or elections generally?

However:

- I didn't make any hint whatsoever on who should or shouldn't have the right to vote in a referendum or elections
- There was no allusion whatsoever from my side, suggesting to deprive the less educated or anybody else from their political rights
Which is why I asked you the question. I also wanted to know how your home country, wherever in the world that is, differs from the UK.

So, who tried to change the subject by shifting the discussion towards the question of universal suffrage? Definitely not me! If you want to discuss that, I suggest you open another topic.
We are discussing referendums and voting, but it seems you are not educated enough to understand that and answer my simple questions. If they're too difficult, never mind.

Did you feel offended because I supposed you have "a minimum of education"? I meant it as compliment, I thought it was clear in the context. I didn't mean to compare you to my friends who didn't finish secondary schools.
I was not offended at all, Anton. I took into account that English isn't your first language. Possibly not your second language either.

I'm ready to discuss all of those topics as long as related to the subject matter here: Brexit. And how does it matter where I come from?!
It doesn't matter at all for this discussion, but it might indicate that you have been less than honest with us (your Anton from Belgium into thread).

If you think I'm trolling, up to you, I'm not asking for yours or anybody else's attention.
But you seek such attention by your posts. Up to you, of course. Seek and ye shall get.
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Offline Anton

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Alfie, you reacted to my last comments on Lord Lamont's political address with this and other sarcastic lines: Would you recommend that poorly educated people are not allowed to vote in a referendum? Or elections generally?

However:

- I didn't make any hint whatsoever on who should or shouldn't have the right to vote in a referendum or elections
- There was no allusion whatsoever from my side, suggesting to deprive the less educated or anybody else from their political rights
Which is why I asked you the question. I also wanted to know how your home country, wherever in the world that is, differs from the UK.

Strange logic. But if you care so much for it, here is my answer to your sarcastic questions. I apologise with other forum members if annoyed by the digression and I will not answer or discuss other questions related to it in this topic:


---- START OF DIGRESSION ----

Q: Would you recommend that poorly educated people are not allowed to vote in a referendum? Or elections generally?

A: No, I would not recommend that.


Q: How do they go about it in your home country, Anton? How are people 'properly' educated there before a referendum?

A: This question seems like a further digression within the general digression. Anyway, I can only express my humble opinion, here: IMHO in my country, like in every other large-scale republican regime I know of, people aren't properly educated before a referendum.

---- END OF DIGRESSION ----



So, who tried to change the subject by shifting the discussion towards the question of universal suffrage? Definitely not me! If you want to discuss that, I suggest you open another topic.
We are discussing referendums and voting, but it seems you are not educated enough to understand that and answer my simple questions. If they're too difficult, never mind.

We are discussing referendums and voting in connection with Brexit, in particular in connection with the question whether British people should be entitled to a second vote if they ask for it. Now that I answered your sarcastically digressive questions, perhaps you can come back into topic by commenting on what I explained about Lord Lamont's political address that you posted.

As a reminder: Caller stated that the EU comments on referendums quoted by Lord Lamont are "fact based" (reply no. 431). To which I replied explaining that, even if fact based, they mean little or nothing in this context, because:

1. Barroso is gone as a President of the European Commission. We don't know how and in what setting he pronounced that remark in 2005. It does sound like nothing more than a witticism.

2. Also Juncker's quote is from 2005, and we ignore the setting. Juncker's term is coming to an end next year. However bad he may have been, Juncker is not the EU, nor is he Big Brother watching you. The only conclusion I would draw from Juncker's comment reported by Lord Lamont, is that Juncker isn't as witty as Barroso.

3. Raymond Barre?! He was prime minister 40 years ago. The prime minister counts almost nothing in France when it comes to foreign policy. I read that Barre did hold a position also within the then EEC, but it was even earlier (1967-1973). Whoever wrote Lord Lamont's address, he must have run out of material if he had to resort to that (vague) Barre quote.


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Online caller

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Excuse me but why did you remove Teessider's line from your quoting? Maybe it wasn't as droll with that line in it, but it did make much better sense   :)

The complete reply no. 438:

'National Populism: The revolt against liberal democracy'. The clue is in the title. Not a revolt against democracy, but a revolt against Liberal Democracy.

Hammonds tax cuts for the richest 10% budget on Monday

It seems the revolt against Liberal Democracy has a long way to go in the UK. Perhaps the UK government should take inspiration from the EU on certain subjects.

Oh I see. You are equating 'populism' to some sort of peasants revolt. Interesting.


Online caller

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What I'm doing is trying to dim Caller's and other members' excessive enthusiasm on movements they seem to perceive as today's version of Robin Hood and his Merry Men.

Really, where have I said that? What I probably have said (it's hard to remember everything - there's so much!), is that I understand why they are happening, which isn't rocket science really, is it? Do I want them to succeed? My view is this - if the EU wants to survive, I believe it needs to change in many ways - in accountability, aims and ambitions and sorting out the financial mess of the Euro before it's too late and if populism is the catalyst for that, then for me, that's a good thing. And the evidence is that it's already working is some ways - look at the shift in approach to immigration. There's not a lot of difference between what Rutte now has to say on the subject - and Wilders - who he claims to detest for his views. The acid test is whether he will practise what he preaches? Such as is happening in Austria.   

You prefer the status quo of a small knit group of people controlling the rest of us with little regard for their concerns, beliefs, or future aspiration (as Cameron would say - it's a good word). That's fine, but that has created many of the issues the EU is now facing, evidenced in Brexit, Italy, Germany, Austria, Sweden and so on. I think the Greeks have given up any hope.


Offline Anton

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Excuse me but why did you remove Teessider's line from your quoting? Maybe it wasn't as droll with that line in it, but it did make much better sense   :)

The complete reply no. 438:

'National Populism: The revolt against liberal democracy'. The clue is in the title. Not a revolt against democracy, but a revolt against Liberal Democracy.

Hammonds tax cuts for the richest 10% budget on Monday

It seems the revolt against Liberal Democracy has a long way to go in the UK. Perhaps the UK government should take inspiration from the EU on certain subjects.

Oh I see. You are equating 'populism' to some sort of peasants revolt. Interesting.

LOL this is the best. First, it's not me but you, or the book you are reading, that stresses about the revolt against Liberal democracy. Second, if not an equation, certainly a close kinship between peasant revolts and populism in general is a proven historical fact. Third, be it agrarian or political or whatever other form of populism you may think of, bottom line is: it's all a matter of wealth redistribution. Centuries old history, mate.

Why not comment on the British government's tax cuts instead, or compare the British government's plans for taxing the "Big Four" (GAFA) with those of the EU for the same purpose?
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Offline Anton

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What I'm doing is trying to dim Caller's and other members' excessive enthusiasm on movements they seem to perceive as today's version of Robin Hood and his Merry Men.

Really, where have I said that?

I didn't claim that you said that, I wrote "they seem to perceive"...


You prefer the status quo of a small knit group of people controlling the rest of us with little regard for their concerns, beliefs, or future aspiration

A united Europe against a disunited Europe, that's all I prefer. I already explained why. Brexit is working against a united Europe and thus, IMHO, Brexit is harming all parties concerned more than it is benefiting them. We already went over it, pointless to restart all over again. I already admitted more than once that the EU needs a reform. Quit putting in my mouth words I didn't say, please.
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Online caller

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Oh I see. You are equating 'populism' to some sort of peasants revolt. Interesting.

LOL this is the best. First, it's not me but you, or the book you are reading, that stresses about the revolt against Liberal democracy. Second, if not an equation, certainly a close kinship between peasant revolts and populism in general is a proven historical fact. Third, be it agrarian or political or whatever other form of populism you may think of, bottom line is: it's all a matter of wealth redistribution. Centuries old history, mate.

Why not comment on the British government's tax cuts instead, or compare the British government's plans for taxing the "Big Four" (GAFA) with those of the EU for the same purpose?

I have no idea if the book say's that or not, I haven't got that far into it yet! But from what I have read independently and from my understanding, modern populism isn't about wealth distribution. It's about the lack of democratic accountability within the EU and how various Governments are perceived, rightly or wrongly, as being party to that. Merkel and immigration are a very obvious example. Although I will concede that in the Southern states, the poor economic picture could be a factor. But in Germany, Sweden, France, Holland - nah, I'm not buying that.

Besides, the perceived wisdom of those in power and the media, is that populism is the result of angry old white men and the 'far right' (whatever that is meant to mean right now). Contrary to your 'historical' view about wealth distribution being the key to populism, academic research shows that there is no-one reason for the recent rise of populist parties. In fact, there is much argument amongst academics as to the why's and wherefores. Although I commend your use of colloquial English - nice touch.

I have nothing to say about the recent UK budget. I have already made one mistake - lol! Although I believe individual tax allowances will increase and although I haven't researched it, I hope that will mean I pay less tax in future! But primarily, I see the budget as a UK issue.


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Well you two are having a good sort out  :) 

Myself I just don't have any idea what the state of play is now with these negotiations ? It's impossible to tell with all the conflicting indications flying around - even Mrs May doesn't seem to know . . .

I shall be glad when all this is done with and one way or another, we are OUT of the EU   ;)
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My prediction is that a deal will be struck at the last minute. Of course, there will be no second referendum.

Today's Sunday Times is reporting that a deal has secretly been reached: 

'Senior sources say the prime minister has secured private concessions from Brussels that will allow her to keep the whole of Britain in a customs union, avoiding a hard border in Northern Ireland. They expect this to placate remainer Tories and win over some Labour MPs.

And in a move that will appeal to Eurosceptics, May is also said to be on course to secure a political deal on a “future economic partnership” (FEP) with the European Union that will allow Britain to keep open the prospect of a free trade deal resembling that enjoyed by Canada.'


If true, good news, although I find this worrying: that will allow Britain to keep open the prospect of a free trade deal resembling that enjoyed by Canada.

But let's see what happens. The usual pattern is for Barnier to come out and deny everything, as the other day when Raab claimed something similar and then had to backtrack. Maybe he simply jumped the gun.

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« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 07:26:14 PM by caller »