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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 11729 times)

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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #500 on: December 01, 2018, 08:12:10 AM »

Sam Gyimah - Tory Minister - ''with deep regret I have tendered my resignation as the universities, science, research and innovation minister''.

In addition, according to another DT article, ''Eight Cabinet ministers have held secret talks about pivoting to a Norway-style "plan B" if the Prime Minister's deal is voted down in the Commons . . . A cross-Brexit alliance of ministers - equivalent to almost a third of the Cabinet - has held discussions about joining the European Free Trade Association amid concern there is "zero chance" of the Prime Minister's deal surviving.''

Coming back to Mr Gyimah, ''who has been tipped as a future Conservative leader, (he) says the Galileo decision should act as a “clarion call”, claiming Britain’s interests “will be repeatedly and permanently hammered by the EU27 for many years to come”. “Britain will end up worse off, transformed from rule makers into rule takers. It is a democratic deficit and a loss of sovereignty the public will rightly never accept,” he adds. Having surrendered our voice, our vote and our veto, we will have to rely on the “best endeavours” of the EU to strike a final agreement that works in our national interest. As minister with the responsibility for space technology I have seen first-hand the EU stack the deck against us time and time again, even while the ink was drying on the transition deal. Galileo is a clarion call that it will be “EU first”, and to think otherwise – whether you are a leaver or remainer – is, at best, incredibly naive.

To be fair, the Government’s Brexit deal has been hard won. But at its heart, all the big decisions in the political declaration that will shape our future in Europe, and the world, are yet to be agreed. Where we set the balance between an independent trade policy and frictionless trade, high market access and freedom of movement, fisheries, agriculture, and the all-important Northern Ireland question are just some of the big issues still in play. It is a deal in name only. And we will be relying on the good faith of the EU to deliver the bespoke deal we have been led to expect
.''

and . . . ''As the minister responsible for Britain’s role in the Galileo project, Mr Gyimah describes the “frustrating negotiations” as “only a foretaste of what’s to come”, saying: “I have seen first-hand the EU stack the deck against us time and time again.”''

                                                  ********************
 
IMO the appalling aspect of Mrs May's current 'push' to get her deal through HoC, is the clear collaboration of EU Ayatollahs echoing there is no other deal available in a renegotiation, whilst we hear behind the scenes that they are mocking the weakness the UK showed, complicit in this 'rout' of UK interests. As more than 100 Tory MP's are reportedly going to vote against May's deal - it will be an interesting week or two. Dare I hope ?  ;)
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Robert

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #501 on: December 01, 2018, 08:32:25 AM »

                                               ********************
  IMO the appalling aspect of Mrs May's current 'push' to get her deal through HoC, is the clear collaboration of EU Ayatollahs echoing there is no other deal available in a renegotiation, whilst we hear behind the scenes that they are mocking the weakness the UK showed, complicit in this 'rout' of UK interests. As more than 100 Tory MP's are reportedly going to vote against May's deal - it will be an interesting week or two. Dare I hope ?  ;)

You asked several times for comments from me and another person regarding Brexit. You wanted to see other persons opinions if I remember correctly? I stopped giving comments due to your namedropping of EU Ayatollahs. Negotiations mean that both parties want to get the best deal for their side. Or do you think the EU should give in to all UK wants? Negotiations would then not be needed at all. Maybe you should look at it from a broader perspective not only through UK spectacles.

I just watched the English series "The Last Kingdom"  (3 seasons). Even then it was already clear you have to work together to get a compromise.

Have a nice day.
Robert
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #502 on: December 01, 2018, 01:22:04 PM »

Hi Robert. Last time on this tack, Oct 25th, you replied to Caller not me , ''Anyway I will quit this topic and leave it to the pro-Brexiteers so you can all agree''.

Always good to see your point of view - we both have the manners to disagree politely   :)

I'm sorry that you don't like me using 'Ayatollah' to describe the EU leaders - but Brexit raises strong feelings and these are mine.

Regarding the 100's of other words in my last post, what did you think ? The Minister Sam Gyimah who has just resigned, found the EU totally intransigent in discussions about the 'Galileo' project, to which the UK has contributed Euro 1.2 billion and he fears that all the other discussions to come will be the same.

'The Last Kingdom' - sorry haven't seen it but I'm all for working together as you say ! ATB
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Teessider

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #503 on: December 01, 2018, 01:48:28 PM »

Roger, what do you hope for wrt Brexit?
No deal, which all assessments show will hit the UK hard and the £ harder and which will not be acceptable to parliament
Or some magical capitualation by the EU which won't happen. Rather than scoff at the efforts of May to acheive a deal offer an alternative. You seem to be in agreement with Rees-Mogg, Johnson and Corbyn who just wait to see whats on offer then reject it. I see only 2 possible outcomes, either May's deal (or very similar) or no Brexit at all.
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #504 on: December 01, 2018, 02:10:43 PM »

Hi Teess. I hope for something better, much better, than what we have right now.

1. Parliament votes down the 'May' deal.
2. Carney who is far too political to be Governor of the B of E to be replaced - his worst case scenarios are always presented as the likely outcome - part of 'Project Fear'.
3. May to be replaced as PM - my choice would be David Davis as a stop gap until 2020.
4. Take the £39 billion OFF the table.
5. Resumption of 'Project Inspire' - in favour of full Brexit freedoms.

                                                         . . . . and let's go from there.

I'm not 'scoffing' at Mrs May's efforts - I think she has tried very hard and shown amazing resilience - but in full pursuit down the wrong path.

You seem to repeat Mrs May's and the EU mantra - this 'deal' or no 'deal'. To me that's totally defeatist. The Uk got these negotiations wrong from the start. So start again.

If the EU don't help this time - then hard Brexit it is ! I read that the trade balance UK/EU is around £60 billion p.a. in their favour - I think that's one  card to play for a start  ;)   
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #505 on: December 01, 2018, 02:13:24 PM »

Teess. Have you read those words from Sam Gyimah ?
The UK has got itself in an awful bind atm  :(
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Teessider

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #506 on: December 01, 2018, 02:35:09 PM »

Yes and he's right. The best deal is the one we already have. It's a shame our politicians couldn't foresee these problems.
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #507 on: December 01, 2018, 02:49:04 PM »

Hi Teess. I don't think Sam Gyimah is saying that at all :-

''“In these protracted negotiations, our interests will be repeatedly and permanently hammered by the EU27 for many years to come. Britain will end up worse off, transformed from rule makers into rule takers,” he wrote in an article for the Daily Telegraph.''

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/30/sam-gyimah-resigns-over-theresa-mays-brexit-deal

Have to go now.
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Teessider

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #508 on: December 01, 2018, 02:52:08 PM »

Gyimah voted to remain. He sees May's deal as poorer than remain.
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #509 on: December 01, 2018, 04:09:43 PM »

Yes 2016 - Gyimah was a 'Remainer'.

In the 2018 situation, Gyimah can't support May's 'deal'. He has observed EU intransigence in the Galileo discussions and says with regard to May's 'deal', that should act as a''clarion call'', claiming that Britain’s interests ''will be repeatedly and permanently hammered by the EU27 for many years to come.''

Gyimah may advocate another 'Referendum' - but I wonder how he'd vote now ? He's due to speak on Radio 4 any moment. BFN/ATB
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caller

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #510 on: December 01, 2018, 08:33:20 PM »

Where I agree with Roger - and where Robert in many respects is right - is this language of defeat in the negotiations with the EU. Comments above such as 'the best deal', 'all they will offer'. We should actually be in the driving seat. The EU simply cannot afford a no deal Brexit, it will break the EU, yet May and her team of quislings seem unable to grasp this and use it as a strong negotiating tool. It just beggars belief really. It seems increasingly likely that Mays deal won't get through and project hysteria is actually futile, as the public don't get a vote this time.

What people need to think about is that for those that voted Brexit, nothing has really changed. Many are still bottom of the food chain and Mays deal won't change that. That's very scary.

It's fascinating that whilst the establishment in the UK are doing all they can to keep the UK inside this dreadful, immoral and corrupt organisation, the citizens of France and now Belgium are beginning to rebel against the effects the EU is having on the lives. Worth checking out Germany as well. Notoriously frugal, Germans are simply not spending. God help Germany if Trumps trade wars effect their exports, as that's the Country's breadwinner. Remove that and there's not a lot else.
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #511 on: December 02, 2018, 08:10:48 AM »

Sam Gyimah on 'Today', Dec 1st, 8.20 am - (just a few minutes). Under May's 'deal, there are brutal negotiations to come, UK interests will be hammered and crippled for decades as the UK becomes 'supplicant' to the EU. The veto, voice and vote of the UK is given up and the EU is a referee making the rules up along the way. Gyimah had a foretaste with his work on the Galileo project. Apparently while the ink was still wet on the 'Transition Agreement', rules on Galileo were changed to curtail UK interests more.

In those few minutes, Sam Gyimah, a 'Remainer', paints a devastating picture of an iniquitous EU and destroys the hopes in May's deal. It's time for the UK to play 'hardball' now.
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caller

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #512 on: December 02, 2018, 09:57:04 PM »

Well Roger, The Times claims to have the details of the legal advise, 3 cabinet ministers have all confirmed there is no get out of jail card as May is claiming. They were all given numbered copies of the advice and were unable to leave the room with them. All numbered copies were counted out and in.

Raab, the 2nd Brexit minister, has confirmed this is what happened and states - as an international lawyer,no less (news to me) that that is what he saw and that is what it stated. The Times sees this as a majot threat to May and the Govt. could be held in contempt of Parliament if they don't release the full written advice.

If they are forced to issue the advice, then surely that is that for May? As she will have been shown to have knowingly lied to all and sundry and she will have to go. It will also make it more difficult for her to get her deal through Parliament.

Interesting days ahead.
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Coolkorat

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #513 on: December 03, 2018, 05:15:58 PM »

The latest speculation is that there may now not be a vote in Parliament at all! Many people would see this as a somewhat cowardly route, and massively damaging to the conservatives however they tried to spin it. From the beeb:

Home Secretary Sajid Javid has dismissed speculation that the final vote on Mrs May's deal - due on 11 December - could be delayed, saying he didn't think there was "any chance" of that.
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #514 on: December 04, 2018, 09:32:11 AM »

Crikey - there is to be a debate in HoC about the Govt. being in contempt of Parliament for refusing to release the full advice of the Attorney General on the 'Backstop'. Geoffrey Cox the AG, gave a spirited defence of his position . . . .  The Guardian comments :-

''Geoffrey Cox is wasted in politics. He should be on the stage. The man was born to act. If you don’t believe me, listen to his voice. Or should I say his VOICE! His VOICE, gentle reader! Listen to it BOOM, BOOM like the deepest CANYON! Hear it RISE and then FALL, like the mightiest SEA! Hear it rumble, rumble like a distant thunder – and then ROAR, ROAR like a towering STORM! That VOICE, O my reader, O my most cherish’d reader! So DEEP, so RICH, so SONOROUS with MAJESTY! Why! It makes Brian BLESSED sound like Frank SPENCER!''

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/03/geoffrey-cox-queens-counsel-attorney-general-finest-actor-since/

The EU appear to be more concerned with being vindictive and punishing the UK than they do in being friendly, reasonable, respectful or even mindful of their own interests. After the resignation of Sam Gyimah, more from Airbus over the Galileo farce :-

''The chief executive of Airbus has warned that the UK's departure from the €10bn (£8.9bn) European Galileo satellite project is a “serious blow to the EU’s common security and defense ambition.” “Don’t those talking about a ‘European army’ know that the UK is one of only two serious military powers in Europe?" Tom Enders tweeted on Monday.

Galileo is Europe's global navigation satellite system designed to be a rival to the US GPS system. It will not only support mobile phones and satnavs but also provide vital location information for the military and businesses
.''

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/12/03/uk-exit-eus-galileo-satellite-project-risks-europes-security/
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #515 on: December 05, 2018, 04:49:16 PM »

Brexit is driving me barmy but this Grauniad review of the 'front pages' was quite fun. SIX days of hell to come until the vote on the 11th - then what ?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/05/humiliation-on-a-historic-scale-what-the-papers-say-about-first-day-of-brexit-debate

Caller if you are around - the DT looked to have some powerful stuff today but I can't get in ?
Anything special ?
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caller

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #516 on: December 05, 2018, 06:06:17 PM »

Caller if you are around - the DT looked to have some powerful stuff today but I can't get in ?
Anything special ?

More of the same really.

Apparently a claim that despite claims to the contrary, a no deal can't be prevented (good).

May urged to go back and renegotiate - that's my view as well, although I believe the EU are still hoping Brexit will be overturned.

Apparently 25 remain Tory's will no longer support Mays capitulation.

More of the same really.

This whole mess is May's fault.

For what it's worth, this was my contribution to the debate elsewhere:

What's happening is quite scary.

May really is the architect of this debacle. Legal principles notwithstanding. For leavers, the fundamental issue is a lack of faith and trust in May, because of how she has conducted herself, her policies and the way she is trying to bludgeon her deal through. The contempt she has shown to the public in the last few days, both in ludicrous Treasury and BoE forecasts, basically treating them as fools, puts any of her dealings with Parliament into the shade.

What Parliament should be concentrating on now is getting a decent Brexit deal. May's deal, 'the best on offer', was never going to be meekly accepted and her lack of judgement and that of her advisors is laid bare for all to see.

Parliament also needs to calm down now and start thinking of the bigger picture and the damage that will be caused to it's own reputation and future if Brexit isn't delivered.

It was shameful to see MP's openly talking of overturning Brexit. They seem to have forgotten the democratic process. There will be all hell to pay if Brexit doesn't happen. Its naïve to think that another referendum, if voting to remain, will be, 'phew, okay, everything is back to normal and please carry on as before.' That just isn't going to happen.

I think May should head back to Brussels and seek to improve her deal. The trouble is, that the commission probably smell blood and think they can overturn Brexit.

It's ironic, that the EU judges opinion that the UK can simply back away from Brexit could possibly be challenged by the EU, as it could create mayhem, with various subservient states using this threat as a bargaining tool. 'you don't agree with us, okay, we're out - come back to us when you have something better to offer'.

I see the whole edifice slowly crumbling down and I couldn't be happier if it does!

I see the 'far right' i.e. not liberal, have a toe hold in Government in Spain again, for the first time since Franco. Again, their results exceeded expectations. In Sweden, 3 months after the election, a national Government still can't be formed because no-one will work with the Sweden Democrats, whereas at local level, Government is functioning perfectly normally, including Sweden Democrats.

I no longer believe the UK will be exempt from such political turmoil in the future, it can't be any worse than what we have at present.
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #517 on: December 06, 2018, 10:12:34 AM »

Caller thanks very much for posting that 'contribution'  :)  Good reading.

Roll on next Tuesday I say. There'll be lots of comings and goings before then, but I desperately hope May's 'deal' is rejected in the end and the more decisively the better.

How and where we go from there - who knows ? Nil desperandum.
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Roger

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #518 on: December 10, 2018, 09:09:05 PM »

Sugar me - the UK have kicked it down the road again !!!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/10/brexit-latest-news-vote-theresa-mays-deal-air-rivals-eye-leadership/

Big changes in Governments in Germany, Belgium, Spain, Italy, Hungary (??) while France has some notable issues . . . . .

On a different tack - I think Sir John Major has a lot to answer for :-

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1056799/brexit-betrayal-ecj-ruling-echoes-maastricht-treaty-theresa-may-latest-spt

Not sure where this is going but - Goodnight !    8)
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Teessider

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #519 on: Today at 01:49:40 PM »

This pathetic governments time must be up:

Brexit is a complete humiliation
Transport is in disarray with no investment in the north and budget overruns in the south on Crossrail and the wasteful expense of HS2 and  Heathrow.
Hinckley is another project costing billions that will see money leaving the UK for France and China while all evidence shows renewable energy is more cost efficient.
Inequalty in the UK (which arguably fuelled the Brexit vote) continues apace as the unwieldy Universal credit is implemented and food bank usage soars.
Meanwhile the £ falls further and the stock market slumps.
Time to call off Brexit.
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