Brexit

Robert · **Reply #680 on:** April 03, 2019, 06:11:46 AM

Always blame others, I give up now. Bye bye.

Roger · **Reply #681 on:** April 03, 2019, 07:59:58 AM

Robert - ponder a little - I blame Mrs May first.
However, Macron is responsible for what he says about Brexit . . .
I do hope Macron has the balls to veto any extension and we can GO

Roger · **Reply #682 on:** April 03, 2019, 08:21:50 AM

Hi again Robert - it's a Forum, reacting is good . . . re. your earlier post . .

''But please explain to me why EU should give the UK the best deal for leaving ?'' - Caller has answered that better than I could

''Why did the House of Commons not react earlier on the proposed deal?''
The point is, they did - but the EU had dictated the format of negotiations starting with GBP 39 billion - Mrs May did her miserable best to get something out of the EU and HoC have not so far been able to accept it.

WE AGREE on Verhofstadt AND Farage . . .

''. . . if nothing being put on the table what can EU do . . '' NOT so - the EU have refused many many suggestions and even now are saying whatever happens in the UK, the Withdrawal Agreement will not be re-opened for any change whatsoever - no matter how small that change might be.

Dam has answered your other point well, about 'difference'.

''UK does not want a hard Brexit'' - yet Mrs May said in HoC more than 100 times, that 'NO deal is better than a BAD deal'. And a 'hard brexit' is still in law, the default position.

Robert - thanks for the chat. ATB

Robert · **Reply #683 on:** April 03, 2019, 12:09:44 PM

Quote from: dam12641 on April 02, 2019, 07:48:07 PM

"There is a difference between (most) of the EU countries and the UK."

Yes there is. They are all used to being walked over/conquered/occupied by the Germans or the French.
We are not. And never will be.

Very simplistic I admit, but most Europeans (note that when I say that I mean 'continental Europeans', I do not include the Brits) have never understood this.
De Gaulle did. Bless him.

Hi Dam,

not by the French nor the Germans but it all depends how far you want to go back in history.

Regards,
Robert

Robert · **Reply #684 on:** April 03, 2019, 12:21:41 PM

Quote from: Roger on April 03, 2019, 08:21:50 AM

Hi again Robert - it's a Forum, reacting is good . . . re. your earlier post . .

''But please explain to me why EU should give the UK the best deal for leaving ?'' - Caller has answered that better than I could

''Why did the House of Commons not react earlier on the proposed deal?''
The point is, they did - but the EU had dictated the format of negotiations starting with GBP 39 billion - Mrs May did her miserable best to get something out of the EU and HoC have not so far been able to accept it.

WE AGREE on Verhofstadt AND Farage . . .

''. . . if nothing being put on the table what can EU do . . '' NOT so - the EU have refused many many suggestions and even now are saying whatever happens in the UK, the Withdrawal Agreement will not be re-opened for any change whatsoever - no matter how small that change might be.

Dam has answered your other point well, about 'difference'.

''UK does not want a hard Brexit'' - yet Mrs May said in HoC more than 100 times, that 'NO deal is better than a BAD deal'. And a 'hard brexit' is still in law, the default position.

Robert - thanks for the chat. ATB

Hi Roger,

negotiations always start with wishes/demands from both sides. Sometimes one party has to give and sometimes the other party. Maybe the EU were better in this game than the UK? The UK could also have said NO, NO we cannot accept this deal but your chief negotiator accepted some kind of deal. Please, please look at it from both sides NOT only from UK side allthough if I were British and wanted to leave I would stick to my opinion whatever other kind of arguments pop up. I do not know if deal was the best possible for both sides but I had to make deals in my life but never got 100% what I wanted. Looking at all the comments I read in the papers the most fuss was about the backstop between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The UK as well as the EU want an open border so find a solution. Defending your principle looks ok but common sense should prevail.

I still think a last minute deal will happen

Anyway I will leave this Brexit topic to the leavers as there seems to be a mojority here and I do want to shout anymore against the wind. Have a nice Brexit or whatever.

Robert

caller · **Reply #685 on:** April 03, 2019, 01:14:34 PM

Robert,

One of the things that has shocked and angered many in the UK about Brexit has been the hostility from Europe. Many, like May, thought they would respect the democratic vote in the UK, understand and accept we were leaving and work towards creating an outcome that would be mutually beneficial. We are, after all, a major and important ally.

Instead, the reaction of Brussels has been overly aggressive with language used that you would expect at a time of hostility. Personally, this was no real surprise to me, having been reading about how the EU operates since 2013 and there were many in the UK who warned of what to expect.

But don't underestimate the anger of ordinary people, who don't appear on TV or otherwise shout very loud about this. Friends who were remainers have been so shocked by this, they want nothing more to do with the EU. Including not holidaying there (not many Brits will be this year as data shows) as they are so angry. Mainly the anger is towards our own Government, but there is a latent anger towards the EU as well.

The Tory party members are now in full swing in the process of deselecting the worst of the turncoat MP's, some who are still being supported by May, despite their doing their utmost to overturn Brexit, so out of tune has the Parliamentary party become with the grassroots, funding is drying up to the extent there are warnings they can't even fight an election.

At Dominic Grieves recent vote of no-confidence, which naturally he has blamed on UKIP members who have joined the party, which isn't supported by those in the know, the sense of distrust between local activists and those who run the Tories has reached such a low, that the lady activists watching over the proceedings insisted that the vote be counted in front of them and not taken away to be counted in private.

Seriously, if a meaningful Brexit isn't delivered, don't imagine for one moment it will ever go away and it will either happen or the EU will change so much, as most believe it has to, to simply survive, that Brexit is no longer needed.

Robert · **Reply #686 on:** April 03, 2019, 01:28:24 PM

Quote from: caller on April 03, 2019, 01:14:34 PM

Robert,

One of the things that has shocked and angered many in the UK about Brexit has been the hostility from Europe. Many, like May, thought they would respect the democratic vote in the UK, understand and accept we were leaving and work towards creating an outcome that would be mutually beneficial. We are, after all, a major and important ally.

Instead, the reaction of Brussels has been overly aggressive with language used that you would expect at a time of hostility. Personally, this was no real surprise to me, having been reading about how the EU operates since 2013 and there were many in the UK who warned of what to expect.

But don't underestimate the anger of ordinary people, who don't appear on TV or otherwise shout very loud about this. Friends who were remainers have been so shocked by this, they want nothing more to do with the EU. Including not holidaying there (not many Brits will be this year as data shows) as they are so angry. Mainly the anger is towards our own Government, but there is a latent anger towards the EU as well.

The Tory party members are now in full swing in the process of deselecting the worst of the turncoat MP's, some who are still being supported by May, despite their doing their utmost to overturn Brexit, so out of tune has the Parliamentary party become with the grassroots, funding is drying up to the extent there are warnings they can't even fight an election.

At Dominic Grieves recent vote of no-confidence, which naturally he has blamed on UKIP members who have joined the party, which isn't supported by those in the know, the sense of distrust between local activists and those who run the Tories has reached such a low, that the lady activists watching over the proceedings insisted that the vote be counted in front of them and not taken away to be counted in private.

Seriously, if a meaningful Brexit isn't delivered, don't imagine for one moment it will ever go away and it will either happen or the EU will change so much, as most believe it has to, to simply survive, that Brexit is no longer needed.

Hi Caller,

As I think not polite not to reply my last comments then.

Allthough the EU stands for Europarlement do not get confused how the individual person in Europe thinks about EU. Many also want reforms within the EU so fully agree with your last sentence. Only remember this too. The EU consists of 27 different states with different mentality/opinions/views. Personally I would like to change the EU back to trade agreements only. The boys in Brussels thought about United States of Europe but that will never happen, big mistake thinking that way.

Hope it turns out the best for everybody.

Robert

caller · **Reply #687 on:** April 03, 2019, 03:08:25 PM

Quote from: Robert on April 03, 2019, 01:28:24 PM

Allthough the EU stands for Europarlement do not get confused how the individual person in Europe thinks about EU. Many also want reforms within the EU so fully agree with your last sentence. Only remember this too. The EU consists of 27 different states with different mentality/opinions/views. Personally I would like to change the EU back to trade agreements only.

I know Robert, which was why I specifically talked of Brussels as opposed to the rest of the EU.

The forthcoming EU elections will be a barometer of that desire for change. Up until now the elected (not by Joe Public) head of the Commission has always been an ideologue (love that word, used by German industrialists to describe the EU Brexit negotiators) and it will be interesting to see if that changes. Likewise, for the rest of the commission, of whom about 50% are standing down in any case. The more 'change' MEP's there are, the more they can alter the direction of the EU. Italy and Salvini are banking on it as a means to survive. So could we be!

Roger · **Reply #688 on:** April 03, 2019, 03:20:23 PM

Hi Robert, thanks for your comments . . .

I'm sure most here will agree with you 100% on two points in your last post :-

1. ''Personally I would like to change the EU back to trade agreements only.''
2. ''Hope it turns out the best for everybody.''

Hallelujah to that

Caller - I really enjoy your posts on Brexit and wonder if the EU will have this in mind when they consider an 'extension' of Article 50 again . . .

''Seriously, if a meaningful Brexit isn't delivered, don't imagine for one moment it will ever go away.''

And Hallelujah to that too

Anton · **Reply #689 on:** April 03, 2019, 04:51:52 PM

Quote from: dam12641 on April 02, 2019, 07:48:07 PM

Yes there is. They are all used to being walked over/conquered/occupied by the Germans or the French.
We are not. And never will be.

Petty English nationalism: that's what Brexit is really about. "Brexit was made in England". Thank you Dam and the others for highlighting it so clearly, over and over again.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVXBnfGFQe0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVXBnfGFQe0</a>

Roger · **Reply #690 on:** April 03, 2019, 05:22:33 PM

Hey Anton - after a long break, I would have expected something a little more original than a repeat of your favourite clip

That said - BEWARE - there's NOTHING 'petty' about Brexit or the "Nationalism'

The other day I noted, ''The 'orrible Verhofstadt was being very lofty as usual today - let's not forget he was PM of Belgium for 9 years and even now, Belgium has great difficulty in forming a Govt at all''. Can you give us an update on that ?

Your posting is much missed here. ATB

Coolkorat · **Reply #691 on:** April 03, 2019, 07:22:39 PM

Could I strongly recommend the book Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari. It gives some amazing insights into the thinking of Homo Sapiens, and particularly the thinking behind the manipulation of large groups. It gives good reason to reassess the thinking behind 'nations' and why particular groups believe they are better than others. But he makes a powerful point; money transcends everything. And when you view the current crisis, money is the element that all parties agree upon (as something they share in common), be it the pound, euro, dollar, gold etc. Money has been at the core of this crisis, continues to be at the core, and will be the catalyst to solving the issue. Nothing to do with nations, immigration etc. The central premise is the economic effect, not the social effect. Money really does make the world go round.

Anton · **Reply #692 on:** April 03, 2019, 11:58:34 PM

Quote from: Coolkorat on April 03, 2019, 07:22:39 PM

Money has been at the core of this crisis, continues to be at the core, and will be the catalyst to solving the issue. Nothing to do with nations, immigration etc.

The crisis was economical since the start, and a global one as we all know. Brexit was the bad political solution to it. Bad politicians levering on people's basic instincts brought up "a victory of the old, the less-educated and the xenophobic", to put it with an American opinionist that I had already quoted before (source). That English nationalism played a major role in that victory, being a more determining factor than the working class' material grievances, is also the opinion of other Brexit experts, e.g. this academic professor. There's much evidence of it also in this discussion anyway, Dam's reply above (no. 676) being just the last one.

Who is to blame? Bad, right-wing, populist politicians. As Woody Allen once put it so well: "In general, any victory by right-wing politicians is always bad news, is always a dangerous matter. Because right-wing politicians give simplistic answers to enormous problems. Homeless persons are there? Chase them away! The number of criminals is growing? Re-introduce death penalty! Solutions that, of course, do not try to understand the reasons that are behind the phenomena they try to solve. Solutions that may seem effective at the moment, but after 20 years it will be worse, to the detriment of future generations who will have to face even more tremendous problems" (from a 1995 interview to Italian media).

Roger · **Reply #693 on:** April 04, 2019, 07:05:31 AM

CK from your frustration expressed recently you now retreat into ''A Brief History of Humankind'', and I'm sure that's a good way forward $:-\$

Anton thanks for those comments - it'll be interesting to see some replies . .

Moving on - AE-P in the DT today :-

''May-Corbyn customs union is constitutional nonsense and a total victory for Brussels''

''So we lurch towards a permanent customs union and British infeudation as a non-voting member of the EU legal and regulatory system. This can end only in acrimony and years of bitter conflict with Europe. Sooner or later an explosive issue will arise. It will become clear why a G7 industrial democracy with 65 million people cannot subcontract swaths of policy-making to a foreign power. The constitutional arrangement is not viable. It guarantees an abrogation crisis down the road.

For good measure we are now more likely to get a radical-Left government as well, one with anti-globalist reflexes, confiscatory tax and anti-wealth policies, and possibly capital controls.''

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/04/03/may-corbyn-customs-union-constitutional-nonsense-total-victory/

Strewth

Plenty of food for thought there

Thaiwolf · **Reply #694 on:** April 04, 2019, 10:14:22 AM

May’s deal is the only way forward - most people and Members of Parliament know this. Brexit with a customs union is not a real Brexit. Brexiteers are now fearful of a customs union exit therefore will vote for May’s deal. Remainers on both sides, are now fearful of a no-deal brexit and will vote for May’s deal.

The EU may give May a little “tidbit” to sweeten things a little and May’s deal will scrape through.

There will be riots on the streets if Britain leaves with a customs union and associated freedom of movement.
Let’s hope everyone sees sense.

PS I just hope Macron vetoes our extension … .then wait for the fireworks!!!

Hector · **Reply #695 on:** April 04, 2019, 10:21:11 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63IcW4eo4uM
This is worth watching (listening to as it has sub-titles) whatever your views on Brexit.

Thaiwolf · **Reply #696 on:** April 04, 2019, 10:34:05 AM

I’m no expert but forgive me if I’m wrong.

May’s deal provides, no freedom of movement, no European court jurisdiction, no customs union, ability to negotiate our own deals. What’s not to like? The NI border issue can be solved by technology? What happens at other EU external borders?

Labour and Conservative MPs need to get together to take the DUP votes out of the equation. Stop p***ing about!!

caller · **Reply #697 on:** April 04, 2019, 12:35:45 PM

Quote from: Thaiwolf on April 04, 2019, 10:34:05 AM

I’m no expert but forgive me if I’m wrong.

May’s deal provides, no freedom of movement, no European court jurisdiction, no customs union, ability to negotiate our own deals. What’s not to like? The NI border issue can be solved by technology? What happens at other EU external borders?

Labour and Conservative MPs need to get together to take the DUP votes out of the equation. Stop p***ing about!!

Yes, it's just legally not having a unilateral legal right to exercise our right to leave that is the problem. Change that and we can move on to the next phase.

May is killing the Tory party and I believe civil unrest is now almost unavoidable. You simply cannot get away with not respecting the referendum.

I bet Farage's Brexit party do well. All those betrayed people ain't going away in the same way that remainers haven't.

Roger · **Reply #698 on:** April 04, 2019, 02:57:45 PM

Anton - working through your points as no-one else has :-

The crisis that led to Brexit was the rise of UKIP was it not ? That led to Cameron offering a 'Referendum'. Not specifically due to economics. I don't think anyone believes that 'Brexit' was/is the cure for an economic crisis.

If the Brits want to reassert their 'nationalism' they are not alone in Europe on that are they? The Brits tried to get some changes in the EU but the EU was intransigent (as ever) and intent on 'ever closer union'.

You invoke 'academics' and the wisdom of Woody Allen wondering about chasing the homeless away and reintroducing the death penalty etc - what is all that about ?
The Brexit Referendum was about a desire in the UK populace to leave the EU and it's ever closer union and bureacracy - something felt by many people - be they right or left!

IMO calling Politicians of any hue 'Populist' is often just trying to place a vague 'detract' against a democratic consensus with which you do not agree.

Good to see you back !

Roger · **Reply #699 on:** April 04, 2019, 03:13:02 PM

Hector - 'vielen dank' indeed. A straight talking Lady - thought provoking . .

Anton - have you watched that link ?