Korat-Farang.com

Sergei Skripal case

Alfie · 90 · 4286

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alfie

  • Forum Guru
  • **********
    • Posts: 8364
Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan and former Rector of the University of Dundee.

Anything fronted by that self-serving twat George Galloway has to be questioned. And the former ambassador? As credible and lucid as David Icke. He was cut loose years ago and knows nothing. Galloway is a highly-paid apologist for anyone with ready cash. A modern Lord Haw-Haw.

So you don't like either of them, CK. Fair enough. But what do you make of the points Murray raises?
'You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!'


Online Roger

  • KFers beyond Korat
  • Forum Wizard
  • *****
    • Posts: 3564
Alfie I do agree that the point is that no-one KNOWS for certain (yet) that the Skripals, (who are still in a coma), and the Police Sergeant, were poisoned on the orders of Putin/Russia. But Putin has a track record of active hostility abroad, proven in the case of Litvinenko, beyond all reasonable doubt ?

Re. Craig Murray and George Galloway - Craig Murray makes some points but neither he nor GG are very stable or convincing characters - I listened to the comments.

The OPCW Inspectors are actively involved now so we might learn more soon.

Meantime, Con Coughlin in the DT today, expands on the more commonly held viewpoints :-

''Tyrant Putin’s poisoning gamble has backfired spectacularly

Vladimir Putin is playing a dangerous ploy by directing the first chemical weapons attack on European soil since the end of the Second World War.
Tyrants like Vladimir Putin are rarely in the habit of expressing remorse for their actions. About the only time Mr Putin has publicly hinted at feelings of regret was when he famously remarked that he regarded the collapse of the Soviet Union as “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe” of the 20th century. We should hardly be surprised that Mr Putin should pine for the good old days of Moscow’s communist hegemony given that, following his successful re-election to serve another term as president, he is now set to rule almost as long as that other infamous Kremlin strongman, Josef Stalin.

Normally, though, Mr Putin is not the kind of personality to reflect too deeply on his misjudgements. On the contrary, he tends to portray his more outrageous acts, such as the invasion and illegal annexation of Crimea or Russia’s military intervention in Syria, as unqualified triumphs, even when the evidence suggests otherwise. "Mr Putin no doubt calculated that this might be an opportune moment to test the resilience of European cooperation on defence and security issues"

Moscow might now count Crimea – and the vital naval base at Sevastopol – as being an integral part of the motherland, but the Kremlin has paid a heavy price for its flagrant breach of international law in the form of punitive sanctions. Similarly, Mr Putin’s Syrian venture has turned out to be a poisoned chalice. By saving the Assad regime, his main achievement has been to ensure the survival of the world’s most reviled dictator.

Now the same pattern of behaviour is evident in the Russian president’s response to the international condemnation directed towards Moscow over the Salisbury poisoning. Rather than indicating any sign of remorse that Russia has been blamed for the first chemical weapons attack on European soil since the end of the Second World War, he is simply trying to dismiss the incident as a stunt dreamt up by the West to discredit his beloved Russia.

This is a dangerous ploy by the Russian leader, as the overwhelming consensus in the West – with the notable exception of the more unreconstructed members of Jeremy Corbyn’s cheerleading gang – is that the Kremlin was, directly or indirectly, responsible for the assassination attempt on Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia using the Russian-made nerve agent Novichok. The attack, moreover, was very much in keeping with Mr Putin’s opportunistic modus operandi, where he scours the globe looking for his enemies’ weaknesses and, once identified, seeks to exploit them for his own ends.

Thus, with Britain and the EU embroiled in difficult negotiations over the future of our relationship, Mr Putin no doubt calculated that this might be an opportune moment to test the resilience of European cooperation on defence and security issues. There is nothing Russia would like more than a weakened Britain and Europe, which is no doubt why the Russian-backed RT television station pays a handsome fee to Alex Salmond, a man who, at the very least, wants to destroy the United Kingdom. Mr Putin may well fool himself that he has succeeded in his goal of creating European discord after the craven message he received from EU President Jean-Claude Juncker congratulating him on his election “victory”.

He can also point to the somewhat tepid EU declaration of support for Britain, which diplomats say was not as robust as it might have been because of the reservations of EU member states such as Greece, Italy and Hungary, which rely on Moscow for their economic survival. The reality, though, is that, rather than creating divisions, the Salisbury poisoning has had a galvanising effect on the major Western powers, prompting a rare display of unity on the part of the US, France, Germany and Britain in condemning the attack.

In the UK, moreover, the assassination attempt, which also caused serious injury to a police officer attending the crime scene, has had the welcome effect of removing any remaining equivocation on the part of the vast majority of politicians on both the Right and Left about how to handle Putin’s Russia.
Previously British Foreign Secretaries, from David Miliband onwards, have been reluctant to take an uncompromising line with Moscow in the belief that the best way to persuade Mr Putin to mend his ways was through maintaining a constructive dialogue with the Kremlin. They were also mindful of the vast amount of Russian oil-wealth that flows through City institutions, both legally and otherwise.

The Salisbury attack has radically changed attitudes, to the extent that the Government and its allies now seem determined to hold Mr Putin to account. Among the many plans now under consideration by our national security council are measures to prevent Mr Putin’s allies from enjoying the easy access to the City that they enjoyed in the past. I doubt this was the outcome Mr Putin expected when the decision was taken to poison a Russian spy in England. And let’s hope that, this time, the West’s uncompromising response will make him rue Russia’s involvement
.''

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/20/put/
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online caller

  • KFers beyond Korat
  • Forum Wizard
  • *****
    • Posts: 1943
In addition to the above, I bet Putin never expected the UK to deploy a nuclear sub to the artic for the first time in years, another direct result of his actions.


Online Coolkorat

  • KFers beyond Korat
  • Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 893
  • Whichever way you throw, it will stand
    • Pix Isaan
Earlier this month Putin said on state television: "Those who serve us with poison will eventually swallow it and poison themselves." Perhaps a not-so-oblique reference to the systematic elimination of dissenting voices!


Offline Alfie

  • Forum Guru
  • **********
    • Posts: 8364
In addition to the above, I bet Putin never expected the UK to deploy a nuclear sub to the artic for the first time in years, another direct result of his actions.

Quote
Britain has deployed a nuclear submarine under the Arctic for the first time in a decade amid growing tension with Russia over its military build-up there.

HMS Trenchant has joined two American vessels for an exercise that will include improving war-fighting capabilities in extreme cold water. The submarine carries Tomahawk cruise missiles and Spearfish heavyweight torpedoes and is powered by a Rolls Royce nuclear reactor.

The drill was long-planned but has taken on extra significance after the attack on the former double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Salisbury.
The Telegraph

Presumably by "long-planned" the Telegraph means more than a month ago.

Anyway, I doubt it matters much. The UK usually has a nuclear submarine out at sea continuously. It is common knowledge yet its location is not published. I expect Russia has a submarine of its own out there somewhere.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 07:19:07 PM by Alfie »
'You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!'


Online Coolkorat

  • KFers beyond Korat
  • Member
  • *****
    • Posts: 893
  • Whichever way you throw, it will stand
    • Pix Isaan
Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan and former Rector of the University of Dundee.

Anything fronted by that self-serving twat George Galloway has to be questioned. And the former ambassador? As credible and lucid as David Icke. He was cut loose years ago and knows nothing. Galloway is a highly-paid apologist for anyone with ready cash. A modern Lord Haw-Haw.

So you don't like either of them, CK. Fair enough. But what do you make of the points Murray raises?

Having listened to it a second time (and my dislike of 'Georgeous George' no less diminished by the experience) my take on the points is this: the former ambassador essentially is saying 'others knew the formula and could have made the nerve agent (even though it was a Russian invention)/ the western spy agencies benefit from this/ no-one can prove it was Russia; it might have been some US chemist nerd because they could do it'. If this was an isolated incident, fair enough. But when there are bodies piling up around the world, bodies which share a lineage to opposition to Putin, the evidence becomes overwhelming. No-one could prove Hitler was gassing millions of jews, gypsies, gays etc. until the Allies discovered the camps.


Online Roger

  • KFers beyond Korat
  • Forum Wizard
  • *****
    • Posts: 3564
Russian Novichok Developer Says There Is No Antidote so Sergei Skripal and His Daughter Will Die - Newsweek Brendan Cole,Newsweek 13 hours ago
   
''The Russian scientist who helped develop the nerve agent that the British government says left former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in a critical condition in Salisbury has said they will die if they are taken off life support because there is no antidote. Vladimir Uglev worked at Russia’s state scientific research institute for organic chemistry and technology, or GOSNIIOKHT, where he helped develop "Novichok" in a pilot project between 1972 and 1988 in the town of Volsk in the Saratov region.

Uglev pointed out Novichok is in fact a group of four nerve agents, each named after the year they were created. He developed B-1976 and C-1976. The other two, A-1972 and D-1980, were developed by Pyotr Kirpichev, who led the so-called “Foliant program” ordered by the then Soviet ministry of defense. He said they produced doses of up to several kilograms in liquid form, apart from D-1980 which was a powder, and they were stored in a special warehouse in sealed packaging.

Vladimir Uglev Novichok Scientist Russian scientist Vladimir Uglev told the Russian news outlet The Bell how he helped develop the nerve agent Novichok as part of a program ordered by the Soviet ministry of defence. He says there is no antidote. He told the Russian news outlet The Bell that the person who poisoned Skripal would have had to transport the nerve agent via a carrier like cotton balls or powder, which would have been in a container covered in a degassing solution.

“If Skripal and his daughter received a lethal dose of B-1976, C-1976, or D-1980, then, most likely, they will suffer the same fate as earlier victims. There is no antidote to these agents. I can say with nearly 100% certainty that if Skripal and his daughter are taken off of life support, they will die, although they are now only technically alive,” said Uglev.

At the institute, where he worked until 1994, he was unable to make Novichok a binary weapon, in which the toxin can be created by mixing two non-toxic substances together. British Prime Minister Theresa May has said that it was “highly likely” that the Russian government was behind the attack on Skripal, who was a former Russian military intelligence officer acting as a double agent for British intelligence services
.''

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/russian-novichok-developer-says-no-115026152.html
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

  • KFers beyond Korat
  • Forum Wizard
  • *****
    • Posts: 3564
Since the attack on the Skripals, I've not seen any wider mention of Alfie's find - ''Apparently the formula for Novichok can be had for USD30 dollars (GBP20.95 or 5.95 for a Kindle edition), in a book available from Amazon.''

So is that 'fake news' ? If not, why have we not heard more about it ?

As for proof the attack was committed by Russia - none yet. The evidence is apparently overwhelming - but circumstantial still. Many Nations seem satisfied it's OK to act. Just suppose for the sake of argument, some Chechen group (or other) now confesses to the crime - there'd be a few red faces around the World.

The latest reports are that the highest concentration of 'Novichok' was found on the Skripal's front door. Lucky that no-one else was around as the house was not initially cordoned off !

The niece of Sergei Skripal feels they have a 1% chance of survival.
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Offline Alfie

  • Forum Guru
  • **********
    • Posts: 8364
The niece of Sergei Skripal feels they have a 1% chance of survival.

My take on it is that the Skriplas are being kept alive on life support. A judge ruled last week that blood could be taken without their permission as they are incapable of making a decision for themselves and that they would "probably" agree to it if they were well enough to make that decision.

Quote
A judge has given doctors permission to take blood samples from Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia so that tests can be carried out by chemical weapons experts, following a hearing in a specialist court.

Mr Justice Williams has made a ruling following a hearing in the Court of Protection, where issues relating to people who lack the mental capacity to make decisions are considered, in London.

He said both Mr and Ms Skripal were unconscious in hospital in Salisbury and therefore unable to give their consent to blood samples being taken or tested.

See here.
'You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!'


Offline Alfie

  • Forum Guru
  • **********
    • Posts: 8364
The niece of Sergei Skripal feels they have a 1% chance of survival.

My take on it is that the Skriplas are being kept alive on life support.

Well, according to the BBC ...

Yulia Skripal is "improving rapidly" and no longer in a critical condition, the hospital has said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43588450

So much for the effectiveness of the "military grade" nerve agent.
'You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!'


Online Roger

  • KFers beyond Korat
  • Forum Wizard
  • *****
    • Posts: 3564
Thanks Alfie - that's really good news about Yulia Skripal.
Let's hope she (and the others) make it all the way.  :)

You post, ''So much for the effectiveness of the "military grade" nerve agent.''

'Novichok' seems to have been pretty brutal. Reports indicate that Yulia had been in a coma for nearly a month and Sergei remains so. 100% care is not possible in a military context and all the victims would probably have died by now.


« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 07:19:57 AM by Roger »
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

  • KFers beyond Korat
  • Forum Wizard
  • *****
    • Posts: 3564
Alfie you rightly cautioned us early on. And from today's Guardian :-

''British scientists at the Porton Down defence research laboratory have not established that the nerve agent used to poison Sergei and Yulia Skripal was made in Russia, it has emerged.''

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/03/porton-down-experts-unable-to-verify-precise-source-of-novichok

Also : ''Aitkenhead said the government had reached its conclusion that Russia was responsible for the Salisbury attack by combining the laboratory’s scientific findings with information from other sources.''

Later in the article it's mentioned about a person or persons having flown on the same plane as Yulia Skripal and returned on the next - a similar pattern as with the Litvinenko poisoning . . .

The other evidence must be strong, one hopes - the fact of it's circumstancial status has not been questioned very much yet.

MMMmmm.

''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Offline enrico

  • Member
    • Posts: 150
putin says no proof in sergei skripal case... i think that was also said in the 1994. O.J.SIMPSON case     LOL      E.F.M.


Offline Alfie

  • Forum Guru
  • **********
    • Posts: 8364
The other evidence must be strong, one hopes

It isn't. It isn't really "evidence". It's an argument/reasoning. Nothing really concrete. If they had anything concrete, they'd have said so, intead of saying it's "highly likely".
'You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!'


Online Roger

  • KFers beyond Korat
  • Forum Wizard
  • *****
    • Posts: 3564
Hi Alfie. There may indeed be other 'evidence' - facts giving the basis of reasoning. I'm thinking that the Govt. may have something from sources abroad that they cannot divulge without endangerment . . .

But let's hope Theresa May and Boris Johnson have not gone OTT with their accusation against Russia - this remains a possibility. Surely 28 other Nations would not have acted without the UK having advised them of extremely good reason/evidence.

CK observed earlier - ''If this was an isolated incident, fair enough. But when there are bodies piling up around the world, bodies which share a lineage to opposition to Putin, the evidence becomes overwhelming.''

If TM and BJ cannot substantiate the accusation (with evidence and reason) in due course, surely, they will have to resign ?
Crikey. I hope they've got it right . . . . .

''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online caller

  • KFers beyond Korat
  • Forum Wizard
  • *****
    • Posts: 1943
If TM and BJ cannot substantiate the accusation (with evidence and reason) in due course, surely, they will have to resign ?
Crikey. I hope they've got it right . . . . .

Why don't you both calm down and wait for the full investigation to be completed?

Do you really think all those other Countries that have accepted this is a Russian act of terrorism have acted purely on the UK's say so? That their intel services have just sat back and waited for the UK to come up with the goods? We all know that amongst NATO members and others there is a lot of intel sharing. For sure, what has been revealed so far (publicly as well as data that wouldn't yet be appropriate to reveal) has probably been the icing on the cake, but each Country or groups of Countries will have their own sources as well.

I see that Corbyn is now challenging Johnson on his earlier comments. Wonderful statesmanship and timing, just what the Russians wanted, but then, his loyalty to UK is often questionned because of his actions. He's actually right to call out Johnson, but not in the here and now, that can come later. In this matter, the Govt. deserve some loyalty from the leader of the opposition, as is normally the case when the security of the nation is being challenged, but that's too much to expect.


Online Roger

  • KFers beyond Korat
  • Forum Wizard
  • *****
    • Posts: 3564
Caller do you mean that Alfie and I should calm down or TM and BJ ?

I'm quite calm. Actually the investigation at Porton Down is completed - they say it's Novichok but can't prove that Russia made it . . .

Let's see what else emerges in the fullness of time. The sooner the better I suppose, as the stakes are high.  8)


''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Offline Alfie

  • Forum Guru
  • **********
    • Posts: 8364
Why don't you both calm down and wait for the full investigation to be completed?

What an odd thing for you to post, Caller. I am perfectly calm. My impression is that you are not calm at all in the Corbyn/anti-semitic thread and you are getting confused in this thread.

Anyway, I agree that we should wait for the full investigation to be completed before coming to a conclusion, which is what Corbyn said and what I agreed with on page 1 of this thread. It's a pity T May and Boris Johnson didn't do the same before shouting their mouths off.

Do you really think all those other Countries that have accepted this is a Russian act of terrorism have acted purely on the UK's say so?

Yes, I do. Watch this interview with the Estonian president. No mention of evidence, just “I trust the government of the United Kingdom.”
https://www.channel4.com/news/president-kersti-kaljulaid-on-salisbury-estonian-people-who-speak-russian-language-do-not-necessarily-speak-putin-language

I see that Corbyn is now challenging Johnson on his earlier comments.

Quite correctly, too. That's what the opposition is for.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 02:27:21 PM by Alfie »
'You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!'


Offline Alfie

  • Forum Guru
  • **********
    • Posts: 8364
The dangers of Tweeting.   :D
'You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!'


Online caller

  • KFers beyond Korat
  • Forum Wizard
  • *****
    • Posts: 1943
Quite correctly, too. That's what the opposition is for.

But not at a time and not publicly when we need a unified Parliamentary stance on what is clearly an act of aggression by another state. That's why I said there is a time and a place for Johnson to be asked to explain himself, but it isn't now. It's just given ammunition to Russia and they are lapping it up.

They know they will get called out on this in due course, just as they were with the Litvinenko case, and their way of dealing with this is to play the big innocent and throw as much doubt as they can, wherever they can, that it wasn't them.