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Sergei Skripal case

Alfie · 89 · 3761

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Offline Alfie

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Quite correctly, too. That's what the opposition is for.
But not at a time and not publicly when we need a unified Parliamentary stance on what is clearly an act of aggression by another state. That's why I said there is a time and a place for Johnson to be asked to explain himself, but it isn't now. It's just given ammunition to Russia and they are lapping it up.

I disagree completely.

1. May and particularly Johnson have made very public comments; Johnson on more than one occassion. If he lied or was inaccurate, he should correct those inaccuracies publicly.

2. At this stage, I don't believe it was an act of aggression by another state on the UK state. It was an act of aggression aimed at one person, possibly two (and affecting a third), but the question still remains, who carried it out? If it was a state, which one? That has still not been determined definitively. May and Johnson are blaiming Russia. That may be the case or it might not be. Time will tell. 

3. Why would you expect people to blindly follow and believe the government when they don't have the proof of their claims? Why should Corbyn ignore Johnson's untruths when they might implicate the wrong person or state? Let's find out the facts. The rest can come later.
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Online Roger

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Alfie on Radio 4 today it was being suggested that there was 'undisclosed' evidence or intelligence that could not be disclosed to the wider public but WAS disclosed to the 29 Nations that supported the UK. Malcolm Rifkind on the Today program was defending the Govt's position.

Whether Corbyn was advised of this evidence too, was not clear. I expect we'll learn more soon. TM and BJ had better be right.

Meanwhile Yulia is getting better every day and Sergei has improved a little  :)



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Offline Alfie

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"suggested"   :D 

Gossip, speculation, smoke and mirrors, but no facts or statements.
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Online dam12641

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This whole episode is symptomatic of May.
The woman is a walking disaster.
Before the last election she was in an unassailable position. She screwed it by publishing a dumb manifesto.
Before the Brexit negotiations she was in an unassainable position. She screwed it by giving away: 'divorce payment', fishing rights, etc
After the Novichok assassination she was in an.... (ok, you get the idea)...she screwed it by............being mouthy.

There was never, ever going to be 100% evidence that it was a Russian government sponsored mission.
One can accuse the Russian intelligence services of many things but 'incompetence' and 'lack of plausible deniability' are never going to stick.

I suppose (I can do no more than that) that our intelligence services are distraught that we misfired such an obvious smoking gun that could have been used far more productively and covertly.

On the plus-side I am still somewhat relieved that Ms T May is in charge rather than the alternatives.
And if that isn't damning May with faint praise then I'm afraid that's the best I can do.


Online caller

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3. Why would you expect people to blindly follow and believe the government when they don't have the proof of their claims? Why should Corbyn ignore Johnson's untruths when they might implicate the wrong person or state? Let's find out the facts. The rest can come later.

I won't answer most of your stuff, but what you have here is an act of state sponsored terrorism taking place in the UK and not for the first time. It's an act of aggression against the UK to act in this way on British shores and that is a view clearly shared by the UK Government and it's allies and many in the Labour party.

As for your comments above. How do you know they don't have the proof of their claims? You don't, it's as simple as that. But Corbyn does, as it is traditional in matters of national security for the leaders of the other political parties to be briefed on events and that has happened, although considering his past(?), probably only as much as anyone feels he can be trusted with. 

Many in his own party were pretty staunch in their support of the Government and (once again) openly hostile to Corbyn.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/14/jeremy-corbyn-under-fire-over-response-to-pms-russia-statement


Offline Alfie

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How do you know they don't have the proof of their claims?

The language used by the Prime Minister makes it clear that they don't have proof of their claims. They have drawn a conclusion, which they are obviously entitle to do, but they do not have clear proof and that's why Johnson in particular should have kept his gob shut (as he seems unable to use anything like diplomatic language). 

But Corbyn does, as it is traditional in matters of national security for the leaders of the other political parties to be briefed on events and that has happened

I read that Corbyn has not been given full access to such information.

Quote
The government has defended its decision not to share the full intelligence on the Salisbury nerve agent attack with Jeremy Corbyn, insisting the “circle” of those with access to highly sensitive information should be restricted.
The Guardian
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Online caller

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The government has defended its decision not to share the full intelligence on the Salisbury nerve agent attack with Jeremy Corbyn

Yes, I was aware of that and in view of his history and unpredictability, its something I agree with. But he was briefed, which is more than you and I have been.

I still maintain you are speculating and cannot conclude with any authority, the full extent of the knowledge the  Govt. have. At some stage that might become clear and you could well be proved right.

I'm interested that now both victims appear to be making good recoveries, little mention has been made of previous claims that there was no known vaccine / cure / treatment for this poison. Even the guy who worked on it claimed there was no cure and that they will both die.


Offline Alfie

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I still maintain you are speculating and cannot conclude with any authority, the full extent of the knowledge the  Govt. have. At some stage that might become clear and you could well be proved right.

Everybody who has an opinion, including you, I and the British government, is using the information they have to form their opinions or conclusions. As far as we know at this point, the British government cannot conclude with any authority who was really responsible. They have not stated that they really know who did it but they have used what they know, added that to what they believe and have then come to a conclusion.

I'm interested that now both victims appear to be making good recoveries, little mention has been made of previous claims that there was no known vaccine / cure / treatment for this poison. Even the guy who worked on it claimed there was no cure and that they will both die.

Yes, no known vaccines, sure to die, lethal "military grade" nerve agent, but vitimes now recovering. The narrative seems to be unravelling. Perhaps we will soon be informed of a new vaccine created in the UK in the last few weeks by British scientists. Watch this space. 
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Online Roger

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Excellent news from Salisbury - apparently Yulia has been released from Hospital and taken to a secure location although she will need further treatment. I don't think the recovery of the victims undermines the Govt. narrative on these events at all - obviously they have received a unique level of medical care and insight.

''Yulia Skripal, the daughter of the former Russian spy Sergei Skripal, has been discharged from hospital, doctors have said.''

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/10/yulia-skripal-discharged-from-hospital-salisbury-attack-nerve-agent
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


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Yes, no known vaccines, sure to die, lethal "military grade" nerve agent, but vitimes now recovering. The narrative seems to be unravelling. Perhaps we will soon be informed of a new vaccine created in the UK in the last few weeks by British scientists. Watch this space.

It's not unravelling at all. I can't provide links because I haven't kept them, but many others have been asking the same question and experts in the field have been providing answers. It seems it's deadliest when inhaled (shades of the west being at fault for all the poisoning in Syria), and it appears the fact it wasn't and that it appears to have been applied via contact, meaning it works more slowly plus the speed of medical aid - Porton Down were assisting - all seem to have been factors in their recovery. However, the future isn't good looking so rosy for them, it appears more than likely that there will be future consequences for them.


Online Roger

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From Yulia Skripal :-

"I was discharged from Salisbury District Hospital on the 9th April 2018. I was treated there with obvious clinical expertise and with such kindness, that I have found I missed the staff immediately. I have left my father in their care, and he is still seriously ill. I too am still suffering with the effects of the nerve agent used against us.

I find myself in a totally different life than the ordinary one I left just over a month ago, and I am seeking to come to terms with my prospects, whilst also recovering from this attack on me. I have specially trained officers available to me, who are helping to take care of me and to explain the investigative processes that are being undertaken. I have access to friends and family, and I have been made aware of my specific contacts at the Russian Embassy who have kindly offered me their assistance in any way they can. At the moment I do not wish to avail myself of their services, but, if I change my mind I know how to contact them.''

No doubt the fate of her Brother Alexander is also much in mind . . . . . .

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/11/yulia-skripal-declines-help-russian-embassy/
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Offline Alfie

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The OPCW is due to release a statement today at 11.00 GMT on the poisoning.

11.00 GMT is 5pm in Thailand, isn't it? So the press release should appear in news media soon.
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Offline Alfie

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OPCW Issues Report on Technical Assistance Requested by the United Kingdom

THE HAGUE, Netherlands — 12 April 2018 — The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) transmitted yesterday to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (UK) the report of the OPCW’s mission to provide requested technical assistance in regard to the Salisbury incident on 4 March 2018.

The results of the analysis by the OPCW designated laboratories of environmental and biomedical samples collected by the OPCW team confirm the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical that was used in Salisbury and severely injured three people.

The UK’s delegation to the OPCW requested that the Technical Secretariat share the report with all States Parties to the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) and to make the Executive Summary of the report publicly available.

The OPCW team worked independently and is not involved in the national investigation by the UK authorities. No State Party was involved in the technical work carried out by the Technical Secretariat.

https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-issues-report-on-technical-assistance-requested-by-the-united-kingdom
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Offline Alfie

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So the report confirms the identity of the toxic chemical that was used in Salisbury. I doesn't specificly name it in the publicly available Executive Summary but presumably it will name it in the reports sent to all the states who are party to the Chemical Weapons Convention.

And, as expected, it does not mention any source of the agent. 
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Offline Alfie

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At the request of the UK, there will be a meeting of the Executive Council at 10:00 on Wednesday, 18 April 2018, in the OPCW Headquarters building, The Hague.
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Online Roger

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Seems to me like evil at work . . .   :'(

''Russia had tested whether door handles could be used to deliver nerve agents and had targeted the email accounts of Sergei and Yulia Skripal since at least 2013, according to previously classified intelligence over the Salisbury attack that has been made public. The UK released the intelligence on Friday linking Russia to the attack on the former double agent and his daughter.

The door handle and email claims were made in a letter from Sir Mark Sedwill, the UK’s national security adviser, to the Nato secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg. It is extremely rare for the UK to make such intelligence public. In the letter, Sedwill, who has an overview of the work of all British spy services, filled in some of the intelligence that Theresa May referred to when she made a House of Commons statement saying Russia was highly likely to have been behind the attack''.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/13/russia-tested-nerve-agent-on-door-handles-before-skripal-attack-uk-dossier-claims
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

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Just heard that the Police have now released sites in Salisbury for decontamination - all except the Skripal's house.

Sergei is still being treated in Hospital . . .
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

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''Putin demands Russian consular access to Yulia Skripal''.

Not 'demanding' access as the Guardian say, rather asking, but it's up to Yulia surely. And Vladimir doesn't want to talk to Sergei ?

We would very much like to be given access to our citizens, to Yulia in this case, and to be given the opportunity to take part in the investigation,” Putin said during a nationally televised question-and-answer session on Thursday.''

Putin also said that 'both Skripal and her father would have died if a military-grade nerve agent was used'. That would probably be true if Porton Down was not next door to Salisbury.

Have the 'Oligarchs' rattled Putin ?

I just don't understand why the World is going to play Football wiv' 'em and their 'Ultras'.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/07/putin-demands-russian-consular-access-to-yulia-skripal
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

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R.I.P Mrs Dawn Sturgess - it'll be good to see some formal comment about these events when it becomes possible :-

''Novichok poisoning: Russian suspects in Skripal attack sent coded message saying 'The package has been delivered' . . . . . It is believed the perpetrators flew back to Russia shortly after carrying out the hit, travelling to London from Salisbury by train . . . . . Sources close to the investigation have insisted the British authorities now have the names of those behind the poisonings.''

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/19/skripal-novichok-suspects-identified-cctv-cameras/
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Offline Coolkorat

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Clearly, the Western intelligence community now has the details of the people behind the attack. The sad events in Salisbury will add even more evidence. Everyone from the CIA, FBI, DGSE in France, etc. will have the full details. They will all have samples to test, the CCTV, the lot.

It was notable that Trump did not even mention the poisonings. I doubt he ever will.