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Roman Catholic? What do you think of all this?

Roger · 15 · 671

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Online Roger

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In the film 'Spotlight', the story of the Boston Globe uncovering systematic abuse by Priests, an empassioned Mike Rezendes, the investigator, shouts at one point, ''they knew, and they let it all happen''. That seems the nub of it. And for MANY decades . . .

I'm not a Catholic - my only experience with an RC Priest after losing a young Child, was the comforting words, 'never mind, you can have another one'. And seeking a good environment for discipiline, my 3 boys went briefly to an RC school before being moved as too much 'hell and damnation' was upsetting them. I have no other direct experience of the Church.

At the end of the Spotlight film there's a frame showing a list of every major city in the USA and a mooted number of 'suspect' Priests. It was shocking. In Boston they expected to find 6, that moved to 13, 90 and then over 200. In Boston, only Boston.
The abuse is 'insitutionalized' going back many decades - maybe forever ?

We all see the Pope in Ireland atm, truly contrite in every way - except I hear the files in the Vatican have not been opened up.

Colm O'Gorman in the Guardian has written about his experiences :-

''I remember the last papal visit to Ireland. It was 1979, and I was aged 13. I went to a Christian Brothers school. I sang at mass every Sunday, occasionally did readings, and the youth group I attended every week took place in a convent.

I remember being envious because my older brother and sister got to see the pope, but I didn’t. I was in the minority in that regard: a staggering 75% of the population saw John Paul II during his three-day visit. One-third of the population attended the papal mass in Dublin’s Phoenix Park. That event remains the largest single mobilisation of people in Irish history.

I remember the most iconic moment of the visit, during a youth mass in Galway. The pope’s voice booming out across a crowd of 300,000 young people as he proclaimed: “Young people of Ireland, I love you!” I remember the ecstatic cheering of that huge crowd in response. And I remember my own heart feeling like it might burst as I watched it all unfold on television. I believed him. He loved us. No one had ever said that before. It was huge. Eighteen months later, I was raped for the first time by a Roman Catholic priest. The abuse continued for two and half years, until I was 17, and I fled
.''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/24/survivors-abuse-pope-sins-vatican-cover-up

The 'cover up' persists ? Colm O'Gorman again :-

''When I and others named the cover-up, we were called liars, accused of slander and of pursuing an anti-Catholic agenda. Sadly, despite the fact that our charges have now been proved to be true, some, including in recent days cardinals, continue to attack us for naming plain truth.''

These matters are shocking beyond belief and on a widespread scale - one wonders if despite all the pomp and righteousness, The Roman Catholic Church can survive ?

I really don't want to offend any Members who are RC and I'm sorry if I have. But it would be interesting to know quite how you can keep 'Faith' in your Church with this going on ?

I'm not an expert and for the above, it's E. & O.E. - I'm not trying to pose or write a 'Thesis'. It's hard to find words to describe one's feelings about this - it's all too revolting.
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

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The story of the 'Magdalene Laundries' in Ireland, the last of which closed in 1996 :-

''The nuns had been dabbling on the stock exchange. The results were unfortunate. When a company they had invested in went bust, they decided to sell off a portion of their Dublin land holdings to cover the losses. The snag was that the land contained a mass grave. It was full of "penitents", the label attached to the thousands of women locked up in Ireland's Magdalene laundries. This particular order, the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity of Refuge, ran High Park, the largest such laundry in the country'' . . . .

and ''The final number so callously disturbed from their resting place was 155. All had died in the service of the nuns, working long hours in their large commercial laundry for no pay, locked away by a patriarchal church and society ruthlessly determined to control women's sexuality.''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/what-will-the-pope-say-now-irelands-dirty-secrets-are-out

and the story of Tuam:-

''The Mother and Baby homes of Ireland – the last of which closed in 1996 – were run like punishment hostels for unmarried pregnant women. Their children were taken for adoption, fostering or the horror of the industrial schools, or they died in their thousands, of malnutrition and neglect. In some cases the bodies were used for dissection in medical schools. This was veiled until two years ago when an amateur historian, Catherine Corless, learnt that 796 children had died at Tuam between 1925 and 1961; but where, she asked, were the graves? An inquiry was established and has now partially excavated the Tuam site''.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/09/survivors-ireland-mother-baby-scandal-justice-tuam

From the same piece . . .

As a reporter, I asked a survivor of clerical violence what he thought of the public apology that had just been made by the religious order responsible. ''They are only covering their arses,” he said. “Which is more than they allowed us to do.” Only about 35% of Catholics go to mass. Former president Mary McAleese has become a powerful critic of the Vatican, recently designating it “the empire of misogyny”. Among the many jokes currently doing the rounds, there is an image of a road sign such as you see outside schools. It shows a parent holding a small child by the hand. Caution, it says, the pope is coming.''
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

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In the DT today :-

''''On the plane back from Ireland, Pope Francis was his usual loquacious self. He answered questions on abortion, sexuality and the child abuse crisis in the Church – but then someone asked him about a letter that accuses Francis himself of covering something up. On this, said Francis, “I will not say a single word.”

His silence is sobering. A serious allegation against Francis has been made that cannot be ignored. If it is proved accurate, the most alarming analysis says it could lead either to a papal resignation or to a profound loss of moral authority, which for a Pope is a kind of living death. It brings me no pleasure to write this. On the contrary, I am one of the few traditional-minded Catholics who have consistently defended a pontiff idolised by the media as a supposed liberal. But the facts are the facts, and here they are.

At the heart of the current crisis in the American Catholic Church is Theodore McCarrick, a former cardinal alleged to have harassed and molested young men (he has resigned but has not been arrested). Last weekend, Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, a former papal ambassador to Washington, published a letter in which he claimed that senior churchmen knew about McCarrick and that, sometime between 2009 and 2010, Pope Benedict XVI told McCarrick to cease his official duties and retreat to a life of “prayer and penance”.

Benedict, who retired in 2013, is reported to have confirmed that he did this, although Francis’s defenders point out that McCarrick was still seen in public performing duties. What’s indisputable, however, is that after Francis was elected Pope, McCarrick’s star reascended. In 2014, the National Catholic Reporter described McCarrick as having been “put out to pasture” by Benedict but as enjoying a “renaissance” as a papal adviser. Francis once joked of him: “The bad ones, they never die!” McCarrick’s American friends enjoyed promotions.

Viganò says that the Pope knew McCarrick was corrupt but “covered for him to the bitter end” – that it was only when McCarrick was exposed a few weeks ago that Francis decided to drop his adviser and order another spell of “prayer and penance”. Francis did it, says Viganò, “to save his image in the media”. Viganò’s letter smacks of personal hatred of Pope Francis. But if the text is inaccurate, why wouldn’t the Pope correct it, just as he has spoken so openly about so many other things? And how does he explain the concurrence between Viganò’s claims, Benedict’s account and what we know of McCarrick’s career?
''''

Although 'Premium' this did open for me this time . . So more here . . .

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/27/pope-francis-must-speak-latest-church-scandal-talk-resignation/
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Teessider

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I think Polly Toynbee sums it up pretty well in todays Guardian.

The culture of respect for religion has gone too far.

religions can be havens for abusers
Published:06:00 Tue 28 August 2018
 Follow Polly Toynbee
 
A protest during the visit of Pope Francis to Dublin, Ireland. Photograph: Gonzalo Fuentes/Reuters
The pope has flown home after a roughing-up in Ireland. Just a few years ago it was unimaginable that a gay taoiseach would dare berate a visiting pontiff face-to-face about the “dark aspects” of Ireland’s history and “brutal crimes perpetrated by people within the Catholic church”.
Leo Varadkar’s magnificent assault eviscerated his country’s past cultural capture by the church. “The failures of both church and state and wider society created a bitter and broken heritage for so many, leaving a legacy of pain and suffering,” he said. “It is a history of sorrow and shame.” The sorrow is not just for victims of monstrous priestly abuse, but the abuse of an entire society in thrall to clerical oppression: lives crimped, warped and blighted, no escape from the church’s domination of everything. The best Irish literature breathes that pernicious incense.
Pope Francis’s visit to Ireland had the opposite effect of the healing intended: it set a seal on the liberation of a nation broken free with its votes on same-sex marriage and abortion. Varadkar’s government plans to loosen the grip of the Catholic church over primary education, ripping out indoctrination by the roots.
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The pope apologised for the “grave scandal”, for the failure “adequately to address these repellent crimes” that “remain a source of pain and shame for the Catholic community”. But the Irish horrors are beyond apology, the women enslaved in Magdalene laundries, babies snatched into forced adoption, and 800 children’s bodies dumped into a cesspit at a convent in Tuam. For thousands revealed to have been abused by Catholic priests around the world, whose crimes were covered up by bishops and the Vatican, no mere apology will do.
No apology is enough for the many Africans contracting Aids through Catholic clinics’ refusal to issue condoms. Even if this better-than-average pope wants to do more, he has a gun held to his head by unrepentant ultra-conservative cardinals.
Apology without radical action has left unassuaged the anger of Irish abuse victims. The church’s doctrine in the confessional offers no forgiveness without a contrition that prevents future occasions of sin. But for as long as this church is perverted by warped dogma on sexuality, abuse will be rife and secretive. The fetishism of a celibate priesthood will attract abusers and paedophiles. Expect no real change while morbid obsession with sex, contraception and abortion still perpetuate St Paul’s founding sexual disgust.
Ireland’s confrontation with its dark past shines a searchlight on Catholicism. But then all religions can be havens for abusers, similarly tainted, equally founded on controlling women’s bodies. The Church of England was shown this year to have downplayed thousands of cases to protect its reputation, examining 40,000 accusations but accepting only 13. Cases emerge from madrassas, yeshivas, temples, mosques and churches with warnings they are just the tip of iceberg. Wherever a community is in thrall to elders of a faith that defines their identity, few dare risk the threat of expulsion from a way of life.
Cases abound: the imam imprisoned for 13 years for abusing young girls in his Qur’an class or the BBC’s exposé of more than 400 children abused in madrassas. Despite plentiful cases among Jehovah’s Witnesses, their rules still insist on two witnesses before a victim is believed. A Plymouth Brethren case reflects the same pressure on all these communities – a 12-year-old raped by a senior elder was forced by her mother to write a letter denying her own allegation. Riots by Sikhs who forced the Birmingham Rep to cancel a play about rape in a temple warned anyone exposing their faith to expect retribution. Buddhism is rife with cases – the leader of Shambhala International, the west’s largest organisation, resigned last year following abuse claims.
In Australia, a royal commission found 853 young children abused by Christian Brothers. Fear of ostracism by a tight-knit community has led to cover-ups in ultra-orthodox Jewish groups. Dr Samuel Heilman, a professor of Jewish studies at Queens College, told the New York Times: “They are more afraid of the outside world than the deviants within their own community.” Rabbinical authorities, to maintain control, resist outside scrutiny that could erode their power – as with all these faiths.
Are religions more prone to abuse than other institutions? No one can know, but wherever there is power, vulnerable victims struggle to expose it. Religions still command an unwarranted aura of respect, preventing outside scrutiny. Yet there should be frequent unannounced inspections wherever children are. The same lack of curiosity surrounds the growing number of “home-schooled” children.
'Hit-and-run' visit: Irish protesters reject pardon plea from Pope Francis
Britain should follow Ireland’s example and set out to abolish religious selection in schools. It is astonishing that in this mostly secular country, a third of our state schools separate children by creed. Many church schools are only harbours for not-so-subtle social class and race selection (yes, some are inclusive, but many aren’t). Faith schools take fewer children on free school meals. But where families are true believers, why does the state sponsor religious segregation?
Professed religion is growing around the world – at 84% – through demographics, not conversion. But it’s on the wane in North America and western Europe, according to Harriet Sherwood’s Guardian survey of young adults. Christians are most numerous, followed by Muslims, with non-believers third. Wars spurred by religions are rising. Wherever religions hold sway, LGBT people are persecuted and women subjugated, Islamophobia and antisemitism flourish.
Our 26 bishops in the House of Lords seem a quaint anachronism compared with Iran’s ayatollahs, but only Iran and the UK are still theocratic, with faith in their legislature. Despite less than 2% of Britons attending services and 70% of the country’s young having no faith, our state church holds power far beyond its dwindling size. It is opposed to every progressive change, resisting same-sex marriage and successfully blocking assisted dying, despite 80% of the public having supported it for decades. And no party dares to abolish faith schools.
Who would expect Ireland to blaze the secular trail? The hard lesson it has learned from an overpowering church is one we should learn too. Wherever people are in the power of priests, imams and spiritual leaders, the state has a duty to inspect what’s happening to the hidden-away children and women under their power. The Irish lesson is less respect for religion, and more instinctive suspicion.

Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions.
Blaine Pascal


Online Roger

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Teess. Thanks for that  :)  It's all just mind boggling . . . .

''Just a few years ago it was unimaginable that a gay taoiseach would dare berate a visiting pontiff face-to-face about the “dark aspects” of Ireland’s history and “brutal crimes perpetrated by people within the Catholic church”.''

 :(  How true that is . . . unimaginable indeed. Apparently on the way back to Rome, the Pope was talking about, Psychiatrists being able to help young 'Gays'. That's another topic - but not the time to lecture on subjects right now ?

''The Irish lesson is less respect for religion, and more instinctive suspicion''. Well I think religion is best respected when earned but also that instinct and suspicion are good things too.

Yesterday I was chatting to a Friend who I know is Jewish, and I asked him very carefully, how this would affect him, if it was his faith being looked at in this way - he replied - well it's two things - it wouldn't change my faith but as for the rest . . . (or words to that effect).

This sh*te is deep founded and even this Pope, seems to be, how can I say, not free of healthy suspicion on the cover up front ?

So open up those Vatican files - HOW can you stand for God without honesty  ::)

My last word now - this stuff is revolting.

(I hope everyone feels that they can post on K-F without fear of being ridiculed, manipulated or slapped down).

No offence anyone. ATB





« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 09:49:18 PM by Roger »
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online jivvy

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 ;D ;D

(I hope everyone feels that they can post on K-F without fear of being ridiculed, manipulated or slapped down).

 ;D ;D
One should never do wrong in return, nor mistreat any man, no matter how one has been mistreated by him.”
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Online caller

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The problem with Toynbee's rant, is what do you say to the many who are actively religious, who are mortified by what has been revealed, but still want their religion to thrive and prosper? Her solution seems to be shut everything down, marginalise religion, cut them out of society, in the so-called liberals usual illiberal way. Whereas for many in the UK, whilst not practicing Christians, Christianity is still the bedrock of our society and generally a force of community cohesion and order. Although that is being diluted by mass immigration everywhere in Europe, to Europe's detriment, in my opinion. 


Online Roger

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After being found guilty of covering up child abuse, a French Cardinal, Philippe Barbarin has said he will offer his resignation to Pope Francis . . . The sin of child abuse seems to be institutionalised in the Church. Is there any Priest at a senior level who can be innocent of either abuse or cover up ?

These matters are shocking beyond belief - can the Roman Catholic Church can survive ?

More here :-

https://www.france24.com/en/20190307-french-cardinal-barbarin-guilty-sex-abuse-cover
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein



Online Roger

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'' 'Spotlight', the story of the Boston Globe uncovering systematic abuse by Priests, an empassioned Mike Rezendes, the investigator, shouts at one point, ''they knew, and they let it all happen'' ''.

Thanks for posting the link Dam. A great movie - (Mark Ruffalo is one of my favourites).

Disturbing to reflect that "Spotlight' is rooted in the 1970's. Might we fairly surmise that this abuse has been a feature maybe, forever, in the Catholic Church ? Worldwide ?   ???
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Online Roger

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Fairground attractions in a Cathedral - MMMMmmmmm   ???

''The Rev Bryant added: “We have one of the greatest collections of medieval roof bosses anywhere in northern Europe. The trouble is they are so high up that most people never get a chance to really appreciate them. “And so was born the idea, could we get people up higher to these roof bosses and so appreciate that they are exquisite art as they are the most beautiful pieces of stone carving but also the story that’s captured within them which is the story of the Bible.”
The funfair ride has a viewing platform at 40ft, giving people a closer look at the cathedral’s 69ft-high roof.''

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/09/helter-skelter-installed-in-nave-of-norwich-cathedral-ornate-roof
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


Offline Alfie

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^ It's only temporary so why not. It will give people a chance to better see some of the one thousand bosses in the church. I think long-term, they might want to consider a different kind of structure that they could install and remove quickly and one that would look a bit less "odd" in a church.

By the way, Norwich Cathedral isn't a Catholic church but is Church of England, isn't it?
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Online Roger

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C of E indeed Alfie - my mistake and thanks for pointing that out.

I wonder how many Folks will actually go up to look at the roof - it's a specialist interest although these constructions are awe inspiring of course.

Maybe something a bit less 'odd' would be better as you say.
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein


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Online Roger

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Thanks for posting that Caller. I listened to Damian Thompson's analysis and read some other related items. Could the Vatican really be complicit in false accusations to quieten a recalcitrant Cardinal ? After complicity in the cover up of worldwide child abuse, it has to be possible.

How difficult this is !  In the UK Carl Beech has been convicted now - you have to feel wretched for Leon Brittan, Lord Bramall, Greville Janner and even Edward Heath, (frequently linked to such allegations). How awful for a life to end under such a cloud.

I'll look at 'The Spectator' again.
''If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough'' - Albert Einstein